By the way actually showing an animal being taken quickly and cleanly could dispell a lot of rumors. People have asked me how can you watch something die and suffer and I have to explain to them that usually there is no suffering involved in most cases. I tell them that ususally the animal doesn't know what hit em.

A lot of people think that the death process is a slow painful one and videos could actually help our cause with a lot of people. To not show it would only add fuel to that fire.

It's a classic case of damned if you do and damned if you don't! I'm prone toward the side of "discretion is the better part of valor" but....

If you are going to show the dying/killing part, then hunters on film need to be respectful of that a life has just been lost and behave acccordingly --- regardless --- of what their "rights" are. Some joy and happiness of achievement is okay at the moment of the "take down" shot but you have to be careful on film (again regardless what the hunters "rights" are). Personally, have you ever seen someone go loud and immaturely kid gleeful at a funeral? That's the closest most city folks have come to the concept of "death and dying." Almost by default, it is likely they will view the two events as somewhat similar and apply similar taboos and mores.

Ever notice AFTER someone is dead and buried and there is a family dinner that, THEN the recollections, stories, laughter, and even bit of flat out rowdiness can come out and its okay. Similarly, AFTER the animal is actually dead and there has been the passage of respect and an indication that the game meat is going to be well taken care of that, THEN a bit more levity will not hurt our cause --- with modern film editing it shouldn't be hard and really a no brainer.

EKM

Good judgment comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!

ELKampMaster
You are comparing killing an animal and the death of a human in the same category. Does that really make sense. I know that in most cases that might be all the death that someone knows but are they really going to relate that to hunting and taking game to eat. I don't know why a person would be watching the outdoor channel and think like that. They must have seen mounted deer and elk in there life time and they know that you can eat there meat, so how can you classify killing an animal and the death of a human the same category.
BowElkDwn

BowElkDown,

Probably the first observation worth making would be that this thread has even fewer "right" answers than that 30-30 thread a while ago - only the passage of 10, 20, 30, or more years and how the fate of hunting unfolds will give the final answers who was right and who was less than right. And here's the real kicker -- as with all things political, and this issue is politcial -- you can be right and still lose, and that's a tough pill to swallow as a prudent course is charted.

Second, I noticed you used the terms, "classification" "category" and "comparing." These words are tools of logical analysis and normally will serve you well on these boards and you are right in your analysis of what I said. If you are talking within our group of hunters here such a disjointed, tenuous association would be illogical. However, it's important to recognize that the "target audience" we are talking about here isn't our own cadre of hunters but rather the non-hunting public.

The majority of the non-hunting public reside in metropolitain areas and haven't experienced farm or hunting "facts of life." Most of these fine folks eat Big Macs, but if you were to take them on a 20 minute tour of the "kill floor" of their local "large volume" slaughter house many would return home guilt ridden with "Auchwitz Syndrome" even though DOWN DEEP THEY KNEW that Big Macs didn't grow on a vine! They chose not to come to grips with the realities of it even though it was right in front of their face (Billions and Billions served!) So it isn't all logic on this one, a big part is just plain, warped, illogical human nature and "arguing them straight" is unlikely to succeed. Kind of like swimming upstream against a current - it's hard to make head way. Which brings us around to.......

Third, the more we can "bring it around" (hunting death) to a presentation that runs parallel to something they are familiar with (human death) then the more easily they will accept it, not by logic but by human nature (swimming downstream with the current).

And now to quote Forest Gump -- "That's about all I have to say about that."

On a totally seperate note: You and your dad are a long ways apart in distance. Don't let the next two decades deny you your time together, keep it rich, enjoy time together, don't let yourself get taken away. Life tends to put some ugly things on your plate before you exit your forties and make you wish for things done different.

EKM

Good judgment comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!

[Deleted by Admins]

Yes, The people we are talking about are non hunters that maybe were channel surfing, or just by some chance came to see a passing show on the outdoor channel, then forming an opinion of all hunting and hunters based on that.

Elkamp is right, most people who don't hunt equate any death with the only death they have seen which is human death. Otherwise anti hunters wouldn't be spewing insults like calling hunters "murderers" and "killers". They compair the life of an animal simmilar to that of a human life.

And your right that it doesn't make sence. But thats the way it is. Just like people associating "gun controll" with "crime controll".

"Hey ya'll, watch this"

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Yes, The people we are talking about are non hunters that maybe were channel surfing, or just by some chance came to see a passing show on the outdoor channel, then forming an opinion of all hunting and hunters based on that.

Elkamp is right, most people who don't hunt equate any death with the only death they have seen which is human death. Otherwise anti hunters wouldn't be spewing insults like calling hunters &quot;murderers&quot; and &quot;killers&quot;. They compair the life of an animal simmilar to that of a human life.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I agree with the above 100%. But where I don't agree with you is we cannot guide all of our actions based on what if someone is &quot;channel surfing&quot;. Like I said before people already know there is loss of life in hunting. The key here is EDUCATION. Educating the general public about the truths and the good in hunting is the only TRUE way to save the sport. Making it dark and mysterious is a mistake.

I'm glad they don't concentrate on the kill. The huntin' is what the sport is about. Killin' ain't what we wanna be known for. It ain't 'bout violence, its 'bout the outdoors. Now I know we got fellers on these sites thet ain't got a clue 'cept thet they wanna shoot live animals. Poor stock bred with poor stock is how we got 'em. Don't let them define a sport thet is honorable an' humane. You fellers thet wanna Oooh an' Aaah over tissue destruction an' hydrostatic shock will be the end of hunting, not the antis.

BJ

BJ I don't think you're seeing the point. No one is saying lets put Las Vegas lights around the kill shot. Hell we don't need instant replay and slow mo video on it, come on. But today we take out the kill shot. Tomorrow we take out showing the animal at all after its dead. Then we ban the videos altogether. What are we ashamed of? We have to draw a line somewhere. This is where I choose to draw it in my mind. I'm not ashamed of taking a animal as long as its done with ethics and taste. Why hide it?

Cause ethics an' taste are inside you. A place ain't nobody thet buys their meat unner plastic gonna unnerstand. You say be damned with their opinion of what I do. But from a practical standpoint, you may win the battle an' lose the war. Best to get huntin' back to the earth. Yuppies respect the earth an' wood craft. Somewhar, the huntin' image got hijacked by the right wingers an' the paramilitary wackos. Not thet anythin's wrong with right wing paramilitary wackos, jus' ain't gonna win no popularity contests with yer yuppies in crime infested cities. Used to be, huntin' was about the outdoors. Now its about guns. You do the math.

BJ