More On Big Game Calibers
07-28-2007, 06:29 AM
#41
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky (by God!) Mountings
Posts: 572
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
ORIGINAL: stubblejumper
If more elk are wounded and lost with the 300win mag,it's because you have an incompetent shooter in your family.I have seen the same type of incompetent shooters using 270s and 30-06s with the same results.Don't blame the equipment,blame the operator.
In our family, we have 2 270s, a 308, and a 300 Win Mag. Who do you think wounds the most elk? It ain't close. The 300 Win Mag wounds, and loses, more elk than the other 3 combined. Why? Because the 300 Win Mag user takes all your big caliber arguments and uses them as a license to let fly at any elk, any time.The rest of us use a bit of discretion inpicking our shots, even to the point of letting an elk go without shooting.
And we ain't talking "caliber" here, we're talking "cartridge." An M1 carbine fires the same caliber bullet as a 300 RUM.
07-28-2007, 07:13 PM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Huntin' In Colorado
Posts: 2,910
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
ORIGINAL: BeaverJack
Yes, but extolling the killing virtues of a magnum cartridge on a forum full of hunters of all experience and skill levels, both imagined and real, is not conducive to producing anything but wounded game. Fact is, pure and simple, most people are better off with a standard cartridge, for a variety of reasons, most notably that they are easier to put the bullet in the right place with with minimal practice. If I had it my way, magnums would be mentioned rarely on these forums and then never in the context of "what's best."
Yes, but extolling the killing virtues of a magnum cartridge on a forum full of hunters of all experience and skill levels, both imagined and real, is not conducive to producing anything but wounded game. Fact is, pure and simple, most people are better off with a standard cartridge, for a variety of reasons, most notably that they are easier to put the bullet in the right place with with minimal practice. If I had it my way, magnums would be mentioned rarely on these forums and then never in the context of "what's best."
Sayingthat talking about the killing power of a magnum is going to cause more wounded game is an absurd statement!
A bad shot is the biggest cause of wounded game. This can be caused by the following; lack of practice and experience, bad judgement, things not under the hunters control(weather, animal moving, equipment failure), and plain ol' dumb ass. Like it or not, a magnum will increase the chances of harvesting the meat,in all the above scenarios.I'm glad you don't have your way, and we can all talk about what we want, and not what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside!!!!
07-28-2007, 10:41 PM
#43
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
Best cartridge.... tough one to answer, especially with specifics,
Generally, for b-e-s-t, "the biggest you can shoot comfortably and accurately" (up to 338WinMag or so, then its a bit overkill but kinda fun [375H&H sure drops the hammer on them]).
For just plain s-u-f-f-c-i-e-n-t, other considerations may apply.
Also IMHO, a 30-06 minimum. Iffolks can't handle a 30-06 then it sure would be nice if they could just take a pass on the elk hunting, but that is just my world.
================================================== ==
BTW, choice of equipment makes a significant difference in the equation for answering the question.
For example:
We just got back from the Pawnee National Grasslands from a day of shooting....
We were playing with the newly acquired 300WinMag Sendero with a muzzlebrake (never hada muzzlebrakebefore except on the 50 BMG and its more of a blast deflector than a brake), a high power scope with external adjustable windage and elevation turrets with MOA read outs ....
That supposedly mean, nasty, unmanagable "magnum" had less kick thanmy 270 (maybe more like a 6mm Rem) and thats shooting prone with the recoil pad resting more on my collar bone than tucked into myshoulder meat....
This was the first time out with this set up, we boresighted it the day before at 100 yards, and then after some adjustments to get it zero'ed at 200 yards, we cranked in the MOA adjustments off of the drop/windage table and I was surprised:
--500 yards, one 3.5 inch group (3) all in the six inch bull
-- 1000 yards, one 14" group (3)none in the six inch bull (a bit trickier with the wind andthelonger flight time)
Even though it is a 300WinMag, this is decidedly a gentle and agreeable little rifleand the possibilities sure seem interesting....
Who knows, perhaps my partner and I willbe hunting with Walker Game ears this fall, so we can hear better and can use a braked rifle with impunity. I've always been a 200 yard man, but this is looking to be a fresh, new, fun chapter to an "old book" thathonestly has beengetting a bit boring the last few years.
Contrary to popular belief, blasting them as close as 30 yards while hearing their breathing and the clatter of their hooves and seeing their black eyes, their near-black tongues, and their"sticking straight up stubby little tails" doesn't necessarily create the thrill or satisfactionI get froma 200 yard (or longer) kayo shot.
Equipment, technology, technique.... it all can make a difference in the "answer" to the "what is the b-e-s-t" question.... one recommendation I'd have though.... would be "hit them hard" AND "hit 'em where it counts." Damn, 500 yards was easy....this little 300WinMag Senderosetupisone fun little rig.
================================================== =
That said, we have found that BJ's advice of 30-06 for newbies is sound advice as newbies generally are not long on equipment, technology or technique when it comes to elk. Our camp has had good luck with the newbie/30-06 combo. [180 gr.Partitions]
Generally, for b-e-s-t, "the biggest you can shoot comfortably and accurately" (up to 338WinMag or so, then its a bit overkill but kinda fun [375H&H sure drops the hammer on them]).
For just plain s-u-f-f-c-i-e-n-t, other considerations may apply.
Also IMHO, a 30-06 minimum. Iffolks can't handle a 30-06 then it sure would be nice if they could just take a pass on the elk hunting, but that is just my world.
================================================== ==
BTW, choice of equipment makes a significant difference in the equation for answering the question.
For example:
We just got back from the Pawnee National Grasslands from a day of shooting....
We were playing with the newly acquired 300WinMag Sendero with a muzzlebrake (never hada muzzlebrakebefore except on the 50 BMG and its more of a blast deflector than a brake), a high power scope with external adjustable windage and elevation turrets with MOA read outs ....
That supposedly mean, nasty, unmanagable "magnum" had less kick thanmy 270 (maybe more like a 6mm Rem) and thats shooting prone with the recoil pad resting more on my collar bone than tucked into myshoulder meat....
This was the first time out with this set up, we boresighted it the day before at 100 yards, and then after some adjustments to get it zero'ed at 200 yards, we cranked in the MOA adjustments off of the drop/windage table and I was surprised:
--500 yards, one 3.5 inch group (3) all in the six inch bull
-- 1000 yards, one 14" group (3)none in the six inch bull (a bit trickier with the wind andthelonger flight time)
Even though it is a 300WinMag, this is decidedly a gentle and agreeable little rifleand the possibilities sure seem interesting....
Who knows, perhaps my partner and I willbe hunting with Walker Game ears this fall, so we can hear better and can use a braked rifle with impunity. I've always been a 200 yard man, but this is looking to be a fresh, new, fun chapter to an "old book" thathonestly has beengetting a bit boring the last few years.
Contrary to popular belief, blasting them as close as 30 yards while hearing their breathing and the clatter of their hooves and seeing their black eyes, their near-black tongues, and their"sticking straight up stubby little tails" doesn't necessarily create the thrill or satisfactionI get froma 200 yard (or longer) kayo shot.
Equipment, technology, technique.... it all can make a difference in the "answer" to the "what is the b-e-s-t" question.... one recommendation I'd have though.... would be "hit them hard" AND "hit 'em where it counts." Damn, 500 yards was easy....this little 300WinMag Senderosetupisone fun little rig.
================================================== =
That said, we have found that BJ's advice of 30-06 for newbies is sound advice as newbies generally are not long on equipment, technology or technique when it comes to elk. Our camp has had good luck with the newbie/30-06 combo. [180 gr.Partitions]
07-30-2007, 01:56 AM
#44
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 583
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
Seems that we are forgetting what seems to be a more and more Popular Caliber here lately. .338 Lapua Mag. maybe not where you are at, but the last couple places I have lived, it is making a strong showing. Powerful and dadly accurate. Versitile enough for ust about anything.
ARMALITE .338 LAPUA MAG.
This can be loaded with a nice light bullet for smaller game like deer, all the way up to ice heavy bullets for Elk, or Bear. It comes with a muzzle break, shoots like a .243, and out of box accuracy that is hard to beat.
For now, that is my hunting rifle. Sure, a bit heavy, looks like a military gun, but, shoots the same bullets as the "Hunting Rifles"
SO it is just as easy to shoot as the lighter calibers. This being said, you can get the practice you need to be confident, and competant with this big gun. Once you are competant, you don't have to worry about just a wounding, and losing your game. It just drops.
ARMALITE .338 LAPUA MAG.
This can be loaded with a nice light bullet for smaller game like deer, all the way up to ice heavy bullets for Elk, or Bear. It comes with a muzzle break, shoots like a .243, and out of box accuracy that is hard to beat.
For now, that is my hunting rifle. Sure, a bit heavy, looks like a military gun, but, shoots the same bullets as the "Hunting Rifles"
SO it is just as easy to shoot as the lighter calibers. This being said, you can get the practice you need to be confident, and competant with this big gun. Once you are competant, you don't have to worry about just a wounding, and losing your game. It just drops.
07-30-2007, 03:26 PM
#45
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
I've toyed with the idea of taking the Barrett 50 BMG for elk, but it would require a spare horse just to get it back in there....heavy, real heavy.
So how much does a AR-30, 338 Lapua with sling, glass, and a full mag weigh anyhow?
So how much does a AR-30, 338 Lapua with sling, glass, and a full mag weigh anyhow?
07-30-2007, 09:33 PM
#47
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 583
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
Mine, with scope, and rings, just over 14 lbs. I know, that is a bit heave to lug around, but still doable. And every bit worth it when it comes time to shoot. I have provided lots of info from OTHER SOURCES than just myself below. Seems there are a few people who have their doubts. I have one of these, and personally, I love it. Heavier than most hunting rifles, but that is something that I am willing to accept.
Here are the Specs from the Factory, right from their Web site.
MODEL:
AR-30M
CALIBER:
..300 WIN MAG, .308 WIN, .338 LAPUA
RECEIVER FORM:
MODIFIED OCTAGONAL FORM,
DRILLED AND SLOTTED FOR SCOPE RAIL
BOLT:
DUAL FRONT LOCKING LUG
BARREL:
26" CHROME MOLY, 6 GROOVE RH 1:10 INCH TWIST
MUZZLE DEVICE:
MULTIFLUTE RECOIL CHECK
STOCK:
3 SECTION: EXTRUDED FOREND, MACHINED GRIP
WITH VERTICAL GRIP, FORGED AND MACHINED
REMOVABLE BUTTSTOCK
FINISH:
MANGANESE PHOSPHATED STEEL,
HARD ANODIZED ALUMINUM
OVERALL LENGTH:
48 INCHES
WEIGHT:
12 POUNDS
COMPLETE WITH:
15 MINUTE SCOPE RAIL, BIPOD ADAPTOR,
OWNERS MANUAL, LIFETIME WARRANTY
Here are some other useful numbers for comparrison against a couplf of other popular calibers.
**the following info was borrowed from
by Jeff Quinn
July 15th, 2004
http://www.gunblast.com/ArmaLite_AR-30.htm
Here are the Specs from the Factory, right from their Web site.
MODEL:
AR-30M
CALIBER:
..300 WIN MAG, .308 WIN, .338 LAPUA
RECEIVER FORM:
MODIFIED OCTAGONAL FORM,
DRILLED AND SLOTTED FOR SCOPE RAIL
BOLT:
DUAL FRONT LOCKING LUG
BARREL:
26" CHROME MOLY, 6 GROOVE RH 1:10 INCH TWIST
MUZZLE DEVICE:
MULTIFLUTE RECOIL CHECK
STOCK:
3 SECTION: EXTRUDED FOREND, MACHINED GRIP
WITH VERTICAL GRIP, FORGED AND MACHINED
REMOVABLE BUTTSTOCK
FINISH:
MANGANESE PHOSPHATED STEEL,
HARD ANODIZED ALUMINUM
OVERALL LENGTH:
48 INCHES
WEIGHT:
12 POUNDS
COMPLETE WITH:
15 MINUTE SCOPE RAIL, BIPOD ADAPTOR,
OWNERS MANUAL, LIFETIME WARRANTY
Here are some other useful numbers for comparrison against a couplf of other popular calibers.
**the following info was borrowed from
by Jeff Quinn
July 15th, 2004
http://www.gunblast.com/ArmaLite_AR-30.htm
Chronographing the two factory loads at a distance of twelve feet from the muzzle proved that the available ammunition falls within the design parameters of the original military specifications. The Lapua 250 grain load clocked 2927 feet-per-second (fps), and the Black Hills 300 grain load averaged 2778 fps. With the very good ballistic coefficients of these bullets, the long range performance is excellent for dramatic terminal effect out to at least 1500 yards. Out to 1000 yards, the trajectories of the two bullets are pretty close, while the 300 grain Black Hills load has much greater energy at all ranges. Past 100 yards, the 300 grain bullet starts to really show its superiority, and is actually going faster than the 250 grain bullet at that point. Wind drift with the 300 grain bullet is also significantly less at all ranges past 400 yards. At 1500 yards, the 300 grain Match King has over 1230 foot-pounds of energy, while the 250 has only 776 foot-pounds of energy remaining. This is not to disparage the 250 grain load; it is still an awesome long range performer, but the 300 grain bullet is markedly superior out past 1000 yards. With recoil not being a factor in the AR-30, there is no advantage to using the lighter bullet. As can be seen in the following chart, the .308 Winchester and the .300 Winchester Magnum, which are two of the most popular precision long range rifle cartridges, are not even close in retained downrange energy.
While the length and weight of the AR-30 does make for a large weapon, it carries very well, and the buttstock is easily removed for transport by pulling two retaining screws, if desired. The rifle is easy and comfortable to shoot from the bipod, a bench, or even standing offhand. It is really no heavier than some long range black powder rifles that I have fired.
Functioning of the AR-30 was perfect. The big cartridges fed easily from the magazine, or just by dropping them singly into the ejection port while firing from the bench. Accuracy testing was done with two different loads; the 250 grain hollowpoint Scenar bullet load from Lapua, and the 300 grain Sierra Match King hollowpoint load from Black Hills. The Lapua ammo uses cases of that make, and the Black Hills ammo uses cases made by Norma of Sweden. Each is excellent brass. Both loads exhibited very good accuracy at 100 yards, shooting into less than five-eighths of an inch in a stout crosswind. No long range paper punching was tried, but I did shoot the rifle extensively at steel silhouettes of mule deer and black bear at distances of four hundred and six hundred yards. Hitting these life-size targets at this range was very easy using the rifle’s bipod.
While the length and weight of the AR-30 does make for a large weapon, it carries very well, and the buttstock is easily removed for transport by pulling two retaining screws, if desired. The rifle is easy and comfortable to shoot from the bipod, a bench, or even standing offhand. It is really no heavier than some long range black powder rifles that I have fired.
Functioning of the AR-30 was perfect. The big cartridges fed easily from the magazine, or just by dropping them singly into the ejection port while firing from the bench. Accuracy testing was done with two different loads; the 250 grain hollowpoint Scenar bullet load from Lapua, and the 300 grain Sierra Match King hollowpoint load from Black Hills. The Lapua ammo uses cases of that make, and the Black Hills ammo uses cases made by Norma of Sweden. Each is excellent brass. Both loads exhibited very good accuracy at 100 yards, shooting into less than five-eighths of an inch in a stout crosswind. No long range paper punching was tried, but I did shoot the rifle extensively at steel silhouettes of mule deer and black bear at distances of four hundred and six hundred yards. Hitting these life-size targets at this range was very easy using the rifle’s bipod.
08-01-2007, 06:30 PM
#49
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: More On Big Game Calibers
Since you insist....
I'm thinking with a barrel only 8" long you must be talking pistol hunting.... even Navy issue couldn't be all THAT heavy.
I guess pistol hunting is apossible alternative when ones rifles are starting to get a bit too heavy to carry.
Probably can find ammo at Wally World too.
"....While also a little heavy, the 8 inch guns off the old aircraft carriers really drops the hammer on game larger than deer...."
I guess pistol hunting is apossible alternative when ones rifles are starting to get a bit too heavy to carry.
Probably can find ammo at Wally World too.
