I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I've seen the evidence, heard countless stories, and watched this thing play out over time. I'm man enought to admit when I'm wrong, to change my stance on something important. I don't do it often but I feel it needs to happen here.

Whenwolves were first reintroduced my thinking was "this sucks but soon we'll be able to hunt and limit them. It won't be a big deal and maybe even cool to see a few while out in the wilderness" Now I realize the political agenda of the bunny huggin groups was to make sure wolves were never delisted and they would spread like wildfire and drop big game numbers dramatically which would in turn eliminate the need for human intervention in managing big game herds. That means no more hunting!! I do believe that was their agenda from the beginning and they have been playing it very well.

With that being said.....I support any elimination of wolves. Not because I believe they are some super predator....but because I believe they will be used politically to stop hunting and as long as wolves roam the woods our privilege of hunting will always be a debate in some court room some where. And I believe we will be fighting wolves and wolf politics for the rest of our days.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Your lack of knowledge on the biological issues at hand is apparent. Sadly, you've turned to a conspiracy theory to compensate for what you don't understand.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

S.S.S.:)

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Exactly.

You all keep killing them off and I guarantee you that you will NEVER get a hunting season. Not to mention that youinstantly a fellon and a hypocrite.

For those of you that want nothing but to tear down the wolf there will always be someone there ready to jump in a build them back up. SSS is by no means the answer to the wolf problem.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

SSS by the people is not an answer due to the amount and terrain that they are found in.

But you are not a hunter or an outdoorsman if you stand by them.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

.... addition:

I never said SSS wasn't a good thing
Just not practical in really reducing numbers.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

BS Brutal, there are no biological issues, it's all political, and that was his point.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I'm beginning to think that the whole 'wolf" thing was reintroduced to eliminatehunting as a whole,,sooner or later you would end up with wolf population explosion resulting in the depletion of game to the point where there would be so much of a reduction in wild game due to the result over kill by wolves that would only come down to a result of fewer and fewer hunting oppurtunities from man.
This is all a designed conspiracyby the nature conservatives, environmentalists and so forth.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I don't believe that they were introduced in order to stop hunting, but i definately do think that they were introduced to take down herd numbers, especially here in wisconsin, where the wolf packs are exploding everywhere. In necedah wildlife refuge, where we gun hunt, there are many wolves that have apparently taken down the herd. Up in Vilas county around star lake where we bow hunt and my family owns a cabin, there were big wolf tracks all over in the snow. And as you know, Wisconsin had the big CWD problem, and supposedly have way to huge of a deer herd (which i don't believe).

So do i think its political? No...Do i think the DNR is trying to keep healthy deer heards by introducing wolves to keep the numbers down? Absolutely

I bet you any WDNR officer would tell you that this is true.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Oh yeah, plus, if the wolf population explodes and the deer population fades, the wolves will then die out and the deer will come back. It would turn into a big cycle until it met equilibrium and slowly get to a point where they live both with sustainable numbers, but not too many. Very cyclical.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Muley, I'm glad you decided to chime in. I agree with you on this, even though i disagree with you over man vs. wild. :D

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Yeah, and meantime you'll be deadwaiting for that cycle to come around again....plus when the deer population fades, the wolves may TRY to switch their diet, and have to be "dealt with" because of it. Wouldn't it just be easier/better to prevent that scenario altogether??

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

i dunno, wolves were here long ago, and the heard was still strong back then. I think it can be managed. Wolves are part of wisconsins history, and have always been around in canada, and canada has strong herds too. I think we are overthinking and worrying too much. A wolf pack usually will only take smaller and weaker deer. Although they are capable of taking full grown deer, I don't think they would waste their energy if they didn't have to. so I think the big shootable deer will still be around.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I think it can be managed too, but not with the current federalpolicy in place.

Also, it seems to me that the current prey animals of the wolves today, because of man's encroachment,have less chance of survival after extended harassment by the wolves than before the coming of the white man.

Prey animals in the time of Lewis and Clark lived along the most fertileareas in huge herds (I'm talking out west now--I'm not sure what was going on in Wisconsin:D). Herd defense mechanisms, the significant proliferation of Elk, Deer, andBuffalo, as well as the overall and perpetual health of the herdskept the wolves at bay, so to speak.

Most animals today don't have as big a "margin" to withstand and defend themselves against the federally protected wolf, because of the long term changes in their ownenvironment.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: bigbulls


on this point i will agree....sss helps but to rid us of these d*** animals poison is the only way to do it. our fore fathers used poison and it worked, and they killed wolves off for a reason.

and a hunting season will do vey little to control numbers anyway because wolves are smart enough to know what you're up to sothey split

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

eehhhggghhh.... wrong answer, come again.

Most native wolves in the lower 48 are a much smaller "Timber wolf", not the large Canadian Grey wolf that was thrown apon us.

Big difference. [8D]

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Wow you dont have a clue do you?So I read that the wolves take 36,000 to 49,000 deer in minnesota a year thats off a tree hugging wolf lovers website so its not some hunting site making it sound worse now your going to tell me that theres that many sick weak deer out there. Whens the last time you seen a sick weak deer in the wild?

I support the eradication of all the dirty mutts in any matter shooting, running down on snowmobile, poison, burning at the stake, etc..etc..

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Yeah, now that's what I'm talking about.[8D] I would like to hear Brutal Attacks reasoning, I have agreed with him on some other biological issues and I think he has some training in that area but I can't remember. BTW, one of the huge supporters that offered fincial contributions and pushed the re-intro was a group called Defenders of Wildlife, I haven't seen their website but I can guess what they are all about.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I love arguing about wolves. It's almost a past time.[8D]

I haven't read all of the responses in this thread yet, but so far I haven't seen any mention about the economic impact that has resulted from the mangy muts.

Keep in mind the wolf population increased by an estimated 27% in 2006. (Source: Casper Star Tribune)

In 2006, there were 124 head of CONFIRMED cattle killed, 39 sheep, 1 horse, and 1 mule. And as most of you who have done research about wolves know, most wolf-killed cattle don't get confirmed as wolf kills because ranchers have a very limited number of days to report them as wolf kills after they die. Most of the bigger outfits don't find the kill sites until they see circling birds or smell rotting flesh, at which time it is too late to report it as a wolf kill. So the reported 124 head of cattle CONFIRMED as wolf kills only represent a fraction of the number of cattle that were actually killed. You do the math- that's a lot of money that ranchers are losing as a result of wolves. (Source: USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service/Wildlife Services)

Ranchers are also negatively effected by the wolves since wolves force elk to bunch up and stay in the open, which in turn makes cattle bunch up. The end result is that range quality takes a dive- meaning ranchers cannot stock as many head on ranges. (Source: Casper Star Tribune)

Then there's the matter of the declining wildlife herds in the mountains. Common sense dictates that if the wolves keep multiplying and hammering the elk herds, fewer hunting tags will be made available. Outfitters will take a huge hit, as will towns whose economies currently receive a big boost from the hunters that spend their money there each fall.

I believe that humans should take precedence over wolves, and as such I support the complete eradication of wolves outside of Yellowstone. Having wolves inside Yellowstone is not a bad idea since hunting cannot be used to control the elk herds. But outside of Yellowstone hunting does a fine job of controlling elk herds. Wolves have no purpose there. I don't think ranches and outfitters should be pushed to the brink of bankrupcy to accomodate wolves. Plain and simple. I stand fully behind S.S.S.;)

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

"Wow you dont have a clue do you? So I read that the wolves take 36,000 to 49,000 deer in minnesota a year thats off a tree hugging wolf lovers website so its not some hunting site making it sound worse now your going to tell me that theres that many sick weak deer out there. Whens the last time you seen a sick weak deer in the wild?

I support the eradication of all the dirty mutts in any matter shooting, running down on snowmobile, poison, burning at the stake, etc..etc.."


I personally haven't, but dnr officers here are thinking about getting in helicopters with snipers and hitting deer to keep the population down. Btw, if you read my post i didn't say anything about them taking sick animals. If you don't remember the whole cwd problem in WI, and not wanting it to come back. Plus, I was talking more about yearlings or younger is what they would take first. if a wolf passes by a yearling, a mature (but not too old) doe, or a mature buck, what is going to be its choice? The yearling. they would go for the slower animal.

(this also is seen in africa and such where predators always go for the weakest of the heard because it is the easiest to catch)

you might not have the problem that wisconsin does, and i don't even really think WI has a problem anymore, but people who study deer patterns there whole lives think there is a problem. And the deer herd is still strong now with that 69% increase or however much.

Also, The majority of wolves here are timber wolves, Not the canadian ones that you speak of

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

If you think that the yearlings are the only ones taken, think again and take a walk in the wolds and let me know what you think after you start finding carcasses. After the rut the yearlings are no longer the weak ones. In fact, they are stronger than your older bucks/bulls at this point. They took the time to eat in late fall. Here in Idaho a big percentage of the kills in late fall and early winter are bigger bulls. They have been running their buts of chasing cows and are the last to leave when the snows hit, making them VERY vulnerable. A BIG percentage of the elk found dead here are bulls after the snow melts.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

just a note- im not saying they won't take down the herd a lot, because i know the herd will be greatly effected in a negative sense.

and don't know about other states, but i know 20+ years ago the dnr was actuallypaying people to shoot wolves for this same purpose, because the hunting industry brought in so much revenue. this is what caused the native wolves to be eradicated like that and dissapear. They would give 10-20 dollars for every adult, and 5- 10 for every pup.


i think the wolf is a very cool animal, and just putting out poison everywhere would be rediculous, unless there is some system that will only get wolves and nothing else.

I wouldn't disagree with shooting them, like start a season like the coyote season here (which actually is year round) but shooting to the point of eradication again i would totally not agree with.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I still see lots of deer sign in areas where there are wolves.I think the deer are alot more wary of every step they take though.Makes them harder to hunt.Im not so worried about deer numbers,as i am myself.Sometimes i wonder if that makes any sence at all realy.Ive dove with 50-60 sharks,held swarms of killer bees,and dont mind crawling under a house to grab a rattlesnake.But you mention WOLF, and the hair on my neck stands up.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I lived with them for a long time, it didn't take long to figure out what to do when i saw one....

DM

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Canada........................especially BC and Alberta have tons of elk, moose, sheep etc and lots of wolves too.
Stop sweating the small stuff.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Your compareing apples to oranges BECAUSE of the HUGE difference in the amount of area they (the animials) have to live in.

It's NO "small stuff" when you have to live in an area and see the game population dwindle while the wolf population is explodeing and destroying your hunting area's...

DM

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Agreed. The comparison to Canada is ridiclous, not even close to being the same habitat andpopulation dynamics of the US Rockies. Elk populations are indeed dwindling, and biologist are starting to agree that it is happening. Additionally, western prey in the US are not adapted to predation by wolves.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Listen I'm sick and tired of all the belly aching!

A couple of weeks ago I give you guys an idea on how to have your voice heard. Did any of you listen/ follow my advice? I'm guessing not. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about:

Join SCI that stands for Safari Club International. they are a very large and very wealthy organization that has the resources needed to fight this battle. They have EXTREMELY SKILLED LAWYERS on staff.

Now once you've joined SCI, talk to the representative who will be going to the national convention in Reno in a few weeks. Ask this rep. to support any motions to the effect of getting Wolves off the endangered list and opening seasons on them. I know that it will be brought up because I've got personal assurances that it will.

If we get SCI's lawyer and money involved we may stand a chance on this pest.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Have you considered just NOT READING the post that bother you????

DM

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Sure, for all our states? How long, 10,20, maybe 30 years?
Where do i sign?

:eek:[&o]

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Have you thought of taking action rather than belly aching? Did you read the rest of my post?

The only thing I'm saying is that these posts are fruitless. We need to have our voices heard. In this society that entails joining a special interest group with some clout. SCI has that power and prestige in the big circles. Maybe, you and I don't agree with everything they stand for, Ie. game farms, but we need to see the larger picture. We need to stand up and let Washington know that we treasure our hunting heritage and we are willing to make a stand.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

[/quote]

Have you thought of taking action rather than belly aching? [/quote]

I thought SSS was taking action

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

No, that's called commiting a fellony.

Being an outlaw onlymakeshunters look bad and causes us hunters to have absolutely no credibility with any one that mattersconcerning these issues.

All of you SSS believers are only defeating yourselves.


Are you all so thick headed not to see this?


You are all the same people that preach that you would turn in poachers, trespassers, etc... but in the next breath advocate poaching when it concerns a wolf.Two words immediately comes to mind...... Hypocritical Idiots becasue that's exactly what you are making yourselves out to be.

Why should they be delisted and a hunting season opened if youhave been doing nothing but poachingthe wolf any way? Who should believe you when you tell them that you will abide by the "hunting" laws when you haven't so far?

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

ShatoDavis and bigbulls. Thank you. You guys finally bring a little sense and reason to these wolf threads. Keep it up.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Blah, blah, blah. Everybody is thickheaded because we don't suscribe to BB's BS. BigBull, you are in the extreme minority, maybe your the thick headed idiot. Who gives a crap about wolf hunting, we want them the hell out, exterminated, gone, do you get that?You havn't provided a single thread of biological evidence to support your self righteous post.:eek:

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Time to face the facts and realize that they will never be eradicated again.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

I also am from wisconsin and have a cabin in Bayfield county wich is the upper most portion of wisconsin..Now, this wolf thing in "MY OPINION" is not a problem for deer here..This year was the worst I have ever seen it or best depending who you are for wolves.It didnt matter what trail or road I walked I seen tracks and lots of them...Also I seen less deer this year bow and gun hunting than I have seen in the last 10 years,is it because of the wolves?? I do believe it is partially, but not because of kill but because of caution...Deer and wolves are like oil and water..Where you see a wolf chances are you wont see deer for a while, not because they are not their but because of the food chain..I have heard very little of any farmers losing their cattle or sheep or anything for that matter..Not sure what the fuss is..I personally dont want to have them here, but they are here and nothing we can do to stop it so lets just live with it...So what is the problem with having them??

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Yeah, I get that you want them all dead. I think it is abundantly clear on this board.

Do you get that it doesn't matter one bit what biological evidence there is to support the wolf being reintroduced?

Do you get how things like this work? For every person wanting to tear something down (kill the wolves)there is at least one person waiting to rebuild (reintroduce the wolf) what youwant toteardown.

Do you get thatwolfirridication from the lower 48will never happen again? At least not in our lifetimes.

Do you get that your actionsare only prolonging the individual states being able to have a legal hunting season?

Do you get that your actions are onlyhelping the tree huggers keep them listed and protected?

Do you get that the only reason they are protected to begin with is because people did exactly what you want to do many years ago?

Do you get that as a hunter you are suppose to be upholding the game laws and not out there poaching or promoting it? If you are going to poach wolves you may as well poach every other game animal too.

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

Here is a gut wrenching story of a wolf and deer caught on pictures: http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/photogallery/gallery/0,20036,1574486,00.html

RE: I've changed me mind about wolves!!
 

That's not "gut-wrenching," that's nature. It amazes me that hunters cansound likePETA lunatics when it comes to wolves. I'm sure a cougar or grizzly kill is no prettier to watch, but it's a wolf, so it's baaaaad. It's equally amazing to me that the wacko environmentalists who succeeded in getting thewolves reintroduced can't stomach human hunters. Both sides are full of it.