Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

In thebowhunting forumthere is a thread about the hunters killing wolves in wisconson. Its several pages long nowand I am not sure if anyone realy cares,so I am wondering/have a few question for everyone. Question #1,if you could have a say in a new wolf law, would you vote to keep them protected or some form of protection? Or would you vote to have the right to hunt them/shoot them like coyotes?Qustion #2,I want to know if you got the chance to shoot one now,(SSS style) and you knew for a fact that there is nobody around and you wouldn't get caught, would you do it? Even though its against the law?

Be honest with you feelings and please respond to this. I'll go first

Question #1. YES I would vote to hunt them.

Question #2. YES I would support SSS, for those who say I am a criminal, well think of our forfathersat the boston tea party. Need Isay more..?


One last thing I posted a reply about the WI wolves in the bowhunt form, but I feel it can apply here as well, so I just copied itword for word enjoy.

I find ironic that the hunters who come to the wolfs aid/support are the ones who don't have to live with them or they live where they can hunt them. The wolves have done damageto our elk herds here in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming and continue to do so until we stand up and do something about it.Because of them,quite the number of hunts have been shut downdue to the lack of elk,also many outfitters have been put out of business. But yet when us locals gripe aboutit and bring up a few facts that we have seen with our own eyes. We are thenlabled as game hogs and idots for being misinformed because we don't have a degree in biology. For the most partnon huntersin general don't seem to care very much as long as thereare afew elk left in yelllowstone that they can see. So weelk hunters are on the loosing end of the stick so to speak.I myself look foward to the day when we can hunt and shootwolves like coyotes. Don't know when orif it will happen but we are sure trying to get some laws changed so it will.For the last three years I have hunted closer to home here in south east Idaho where the elk hunting is not as goodin years past as central Idaho was(my home away from home I grew up hunting there).But yet there are no wolves around and the elk still act like elk. I watched my favorite area around salmon Idaho go from glory to the dumps as far as the quality of elk hunting and number of elk. In my new area I amstill am punching my elk tag too, like I do most years, but I sure wonder if wolves move into my new area where will I go hunt next? Maybe if hunters nation wide saw wolves damage there favorite hunting spot then they would think twice before jumping on the pro wolf ban wagon. Then again maybe not? After all we have forgotten or disagreed with the reason our grandfathers got rid of the wolves in the first place.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Issue tags, obey the law. This ain't about independence from a oppressive monarchy.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Instructor.
I am also from Idaho and I have been watching the Wolf Pandemic very closely. I hunt around Council, Id. And have seen way to much wolf activity in the last few years up there. I have talked to a few sheep hearders up there and they said that they are not going to free ranger their sheep up there anymore due to the enormous wolf packs. He also told me that during the night a wolf pack came in and killed only his great perinees dogs. You know the big white ones. He said the wolves knew that was there only real threat so they took them out first. And then started devouring the flock of sheep. Is their a problem yes... Will I do something about it Yes! To answer your ?'s
1-Yes I would vote to hunt them..
2-Yes I will support the SSS program.!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I also agree that the majority of the people that are raising a fuss about the security of the wolves are people that don't have a clue what is really happening. They are people fromurban america who want to believe that they are cute little house pets. And that wolves are not a threat to the big game population. Primarily elk.. I hope thaturban america can open their eyes, and see what is really happening! My grandfather made it happen.. And so will I! I also wish to make one more point. The same people that raise a fuss with the wolves... Are the same people that don't stand behind our Commander in Chief! Support the War and your President.!!!!!!

Proud to Be a American!!!
As well as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Thats exactly what its about independence from oppressive idiots.

Sheepeople thats what you are !!!!

Are you not educated enough to know when your head is wet to look up and see if its your roof that is leaking or is itsomeone pissing on your head?

It is a sorry state that this country is in that we allow our selves to be governed by the likes of these senseless morons.

Maybe we shouldn't shoot wolves, shooting wolf lovers would better for or forests.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

If I see one on my land I would shoot it. No question.

I would like to see a season on them where their numbers have already grown out of control. A bounty in these areas is probably already needed.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I live in Montana and shoulda known better than to stick my nose into a baited wolf debate string. I do find it interesting that a federal law enforcement officer advocates violating federal law.

Look, as a hunter I wish they hadn't reintroduced wolves. There's enough competition as is. But Irespect the animals for what they are: Apredator that has its place in the natural world.I don't buy all thefolklore about the wolves' murderous ways any more than I believe Little Red Riding Hoodwasreal. But wolves evoke strong emotion, none stronger than from the folks who raise our cattle and sheep, and I can understand their concern. The feds are killing a lot wolves that get a taste for domesticated meat, as they should. Eventually, though, it'll be time to turn management over to the states. When that happens, I hope they create a wolf season as a way to help manage the population. Like Bison and cougar, though, a hunting season alone won't accomplish the best management, and I guess state authorities will bekilling trouble wolves like the fedsdo know. But the "shoot, shovel and shut up" attitude doesn't contribute anything tothe situation. It sounds tough, but it's bull.

Let 'er rip...

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

The same government that people want to manage wolves is the same one that has this country & our children three trillion dollars in debt.To sit back and believe that these same people give a wet rats a$$ if wolves destroy the Eco system of their entire range you are sadly mistaken.
I don't hate the wolves ,I hate the morons that put the wolves into the middle of the rocky mountains instead of the middle of New York!!!!!!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Well there have been some great points mentioned. And I also admire the wolf. However, I fear them even more.. And yes I am a Law Enforcement Officer. But My Opinions are as a Sportsman! I have seen the damage done by the reintroduction. And will not stand for PUSHOVER SPORTSMAN to just say Oh Well, there is nothing we can do about it. Because we can do something about it. We share a brotherhood among sports men and women that can move mountains if we so desire. With that said, If you attend debates or public hearings at your local office your voice and opinions will be heard. But to stand back and be okay with the ever persistant push of the animal rights activists is not acceptable. I will uphold the Values and Sportsmanship that my father taught me. And that includes the protection of Game Animals for My future Generation! Because that's what it is really about. You, your kids, and memories!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Oh ya Jim-
I agree with you 100% Turn em loose!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Kill them all is what I say outside of national parks. They serve no purpose to us outside the parks. If you wanna see them as they really are. Go to yellowstone park.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

There are 2 extremes. One says to leave the wolves be and the other is to kill them all. I'm sorry but the latter is just as bad as the first.

To answer your questions, IEI....
#1 I deffinately support and would vote for a wolf season.
#2 I would not support any form of SSS as it is illegal and seems to be a tad extreme. But, like I said in the BH forum, you and I live in totally different areas and the issues with the wolves are not the same here as they are out West.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I agree with lp. If they were introduced to control populations of elk and deer that were out of control it would be one thing. A lot of what I have seen as an easterner is that tags and such for the deer and elk were already at a premium out there. They could have expanded those programs but decided not to. We are predators too, was another needed to control populations, no. The gov didn’t want hunting in their parks so the introduction of the wolf was their option, stupid as it was. If it is out side of a park though I think it ought to be open season. The game, not to mention livestock, the wolf kills is money right out of the tax payers pocket in decreased hunting fees and hunting guides jobs. What is the wolf going to give back to the community?

mello

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

#1- YES. I think keeping them protected is foolish. Hunting is by far the best management tool we have at our disposal.
#2- YES. I'd just look for a collar before I shot. If the US Fish and Wildlife service won't delist them, sportsmen and ranchers have to step in to save livestock and wildlife. I think SSS already happens more than most people realize. But I personally have never seen a wolf when I was hunting- I go to areas where the wolves haven't made it yet.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Hmmm
I have had a self issue tag here in Montana for Wolffor years, However I have failed to fill it. Think that about sums it up.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Everyone is scared of something i guess.I HATE SPIDERS!!! but i dont mind snakes.Even cobras,pythons,anacondas.I think wolves do scare me.I do support wolf seasion. I wont do the s.s.s. myself but when i hear about it,or see it i mind my own bussiness.Im not loosing my hunting priv. over that.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

The true story is in this day and age they just don't work here.(Wolves)With the out of state influences buying up land by the milesand posting it for their personal use, combined with the wolves we are running out of places to hunt.I am not, nor will Iever be a multi millionaire and can't buy my own chunk of this state. The last great place isn't anymore.
Myself, I think I have seen my last Montana hunt as the competition is getting to great. I am moving to the last frontier (AK), which is also changing from outside influences, however there is so much vast space up here I won't see it get over run like Montana has in my lifetime.
Scared....you bet. So much so I am moving.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Hay Bob, I know what youre talking about.I guess we know what the natives were feeling back in the early years.Im not ready to leave Wisconsin yet,but most people here in my town have never gone 200 miles in any direction.They havent seen a concrete jungle where our way of life only exists in stories about the old days.Tell someone there you kill-butcher-and eat venison,and they just dont understand.And how could they,all they know is fed to them via television(90210) and vidio games.Parents both work,and the housing assn.tells you what color your curtains have to be in your house.These are the people who supported re-introduction of wolves.I think i know the type pretty well.I hear it all day long.(I want theOppossums gone but we like to watch the foxes,so dont catch those)I wonder how many of them would be wolf lovers if it was skunks we were talking about.SameSame right? Its all wildlife.Sure,there would be a few squawking about it,but most people could care less if we killed every skunk in the world.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Double yes, Montana Bob is right on the money. Perhaps it's time to put two and two togather. My personal belief is that this is a well crafted, if not ingeous plan to take a serious swipe at hunters, orchestrated by anti-hunting coalitions and their members. We have been out thought, and out manuevered. The USFS introduces a non-native species, a super predator. Mean while, the USFS continues to decommission roads, while refusing to build new ones into the mountains. Existing roads are being closed for vast periods of time over the winter as well. Push the people out and limit access is the rule of thumb for one federal agency, while another federal agency fills the void with a super predator, and the hunter is left with nothing. Personally, my opinoin of the USFS is that they have no constitutional right to own vast tracks of land, and therfore NO constitutional authority over those said tracks of land. I do not reconize any USFS regulation. I no longer buy a wood cutting permit, a christmas tree permit, or any mineral permit. I also will rip out a gate in a NY minute.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Hay muley69 I am probobly thaught by most to be a paranoid person.But that whole conspiracy thing has me wondering how many days its been since youve slept.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Bang!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Boy's I to feel your pain.:(
3s's
BBJ

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I won't answer, Plausible denial you know.

Let me say this though, If we all shot everyone we saw it wouldn't make a dent in the population.How manyhave you seen? It took poisoning to eradicate them the first time, because hunting and trapping wasn't effective enough. What makes you think that we would be any better than the old timers.

How about P&LOW. Poison & Look Other Way!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

The invention of smokeless powder is a good start & Roy Weatherby rifles will help.

But you are right we couldn't killem all if we tried!

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

That was my response over three years ago and folks here on this forum just about boiled me in oil, now after three years and as my predictions keep getting closer and closer to being a reality it is satisfying to see some folks take on a different opinion.

The wolf reintroduction plan was an ingenious, well crafted "sucker punch" to the hunting public and those that try to make an agricultural living in therural mountain west.

Looks to me like too many folkscaught on too late though.... it was a master stroke by our opponents.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

In 2005 i had alot of work in the southwest,Coyotes were tearing up the place,people getting bit,dogs and cats missing.I spent 30 days and killed 150 of them before i stopped counting.In 2006 i only got a fraction of the calls i did the prev. year.I know i got alot of them,I know i cant take all the credit,and with a boom like that, lots got sick and died im sure.But you cant say it isnt possible to take the population back some if you realy want to.Is it worth all the effort? I think thats up to the indevidual

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I'm not telling anyone to do this, I'm simply speaking hypothetically.
But, Hypothetically if a had an abundance of canines that I want to eliminate. I would hypothetically buy some hypothetical stryknine (sp?) and some hamburger and it might accidentally/ unbeknownist to meget mixed together in my truck bed while I was driving. And It might unknowingly bounce out of my truck on a rough road in the Hypothetical area of the hypothetical canines.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I wouldnt wish that on even a coyote dude.My cold heartedness has a limit i guess.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I didn't read any of the other answers, but here's mine...

Yes: they should be shot.. no tags no limit. Our forfathers had this one right the first time.

Yes: i never had to think about this very long after haveing to live with them around for a while...

DM

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

That and with my luck some kids dog would come allong.I realy couldnt handle that.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Strychnine (a quite painful death) is systemic and will kill other animals down stream of the first victim if something predates on the first victim.

Cyanide (suffocation)is not systemic and will be rendered harmless within minutes after the first victims death as it quickly combines (chemically) with what ever it comes in touch with and becomes "tied up" and useless.

As I understand it, wolves are a curious sort and one weapon used during the "last go round" was the "rag-pull gun".... a scented rag was attached to a trigger and when "pulled upon" it fired a blast of cyanide into the wolves mouth face, this way it was "semi-selective".... with todays technology they could be made much more selective and safer than that.

These units were used as the wolf population was dwindling and it was getting harder to "get 'em.

Our grandfathers and great-grandfather's knew what they were doing.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

I agree with EKM-
We took a huge sucker punch from our arch enimies. They really hurt us on this one. And it is going to take decades before it MIGHT be like it was when I started hunting. I will do my part. And as for seeing them. ****, just drive Highway 95 North from Council to McCall Idaho early in the morning. You can see them from the road.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Poision is something i wont even apply for a permit for.Its evil,even when youre talking about coyotes and wolves.I get a job done with snares and steel.And i dont leave the stinking things out there to rot.Poision is something disgruntled wives use.That gun you wer talking about had a pull pressure trigger and the round fired a cyanide capsuleinto his mouth.The usda stopped using it but there are still a few to be found.I never could figgure out why load a capsule,instead of a live round?As the US govt. keeps needing to find money wherever it can,the usda looses manpower.And people are having to hire it done,or do it themselves.BETTER GET A PERMIT THOUGH. Shooting a wolf in the lower 48 can realy mess up your hunting plans for the next 5 years.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Part of our job as hunters is conservation and wildlife management. Issue tags where the population needs managed.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Speaking of populations and the issuance of tags....
As the wolves decimate elk and moose populations (compared to what they used to be in the 'good old days").... the issuance of tags to hunters is going to be the FIRST thing to be reduced! Already happened in Gardiner, Montana (nearYellowstone, ground zero for wolves).

Hunters will become less needed to maintain the balance of nature. With fewer hunters able to hunt what they want when they want, more hunters will likely drop out of hunting altogether.... and that is apretty strong trend already without any extra help from this new factor.

It truly was an ingenious, well thought out, well financed, slick.... sucker punch.... sophisticated playersvrsus the "rowdy boys".... sophisticated won.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone to do it. I was only speaking hypothetically. But, my response would be that its war and war isn't always pretty. The only way we got rid of them the first time was with poison.

Listen, the Gov. is never going to delist them in my lifetime. They listen to the damn bleeding hearts too much. So if you want them gone, take matters into your own hands and shoot, trap, &poison all of them.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

EKM. You got that right. I was at a hunter/land owner meeting a while back and the Game and Fish is certainly concerned about reduced numbers of hunters. They said a couple thing that are hurting the numbers is the fact that the population is aging and the rigors of hunting hit the older guys first. These are the guys who have been buying the permits and intruducing young folks to the sport. The second reason it the high divorce rate. As more and More kids are being raised by Mom, they are much less likely to get the kids into hunting and shooting. Add this to the rising cost of everything related to hunting and the loss of habitat and we can see what hunting is up against.

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Sounds like they talked you right arround the wolf issue.Theres still plenty of hunters that would like more than one tag.Here in Wi. when town shut down for deer seasion and you could only take one deer.Now there are fewer hunters(bow anyway) and tags are 2 bucks a piece(antlerless).

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

There was a reason the wolf and predetor population was decimateddue to agriculter.There were way many more family ranches and farms(many more pepole depended on this to).There was way more city folks outdoors enjoying hunting,more family time.It was the right of passage for some young men,it was holy family thing.
As farms a ranches dwindled so did the backbone of agriculter.There was a time in the US when landowner and sportsmen could have fought the wolf reintroduction.
Now that they have a seed,the tables have turned.With less landowners,fewer and fewer sportsmans,and way to many folks who don't know beans about predetors or what the can do(the only knowlege they get is fed to them via Disney,Animal planet and Nat'l Geo Graphic.)
Some choose not to see or know,some have never seen the outside of city.
We as sportsman can fight this,we need you guys from Florida,NewYork,Maine anyone who comes from where wolves don't an tell the DNRC,FWP what you guys see,what you guys know.E-mail them everyday,ask for updates,talk to your own seneators,congressmen and woeman.
Us guys in these states do get much clout,but guys from Calif,VT,Conn,RI and so on do.

So to the guys who are fighting now I'm with ya,and to the ones not Stand up and fight.
BBJ

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

The heart and sole of state sponsored hunting is that it is the primary method of population control, and it was an impossible hurdle for the anti-hunting crowd to overcome. They picked around the edges of hunting, trying to band what the could, but have never been able to really make a dent in the over all hunting culture. Anti's knew why hunting had become so necessary to manage populations, because of an absence of predators other then humans. Armed with that knowledge, they out-manuevered the hunting community. You can call it a conspiracyif you want, infiltration of government conservation bureaucracies is more like it. Fifty miles north of here is Missoula, MT. Home to more environmental oraganizations than any other city in the nation outside of Washington D.C. Right here in the Bitterroot valley we have an anti hunting, anti logging enviro group called Freinds of the Bitterroot. They constantly sue the FS over logging, support enviro-whacko legeslation etc. Nobody actually knows who belongs to this group, where they are HQed, or where they even meet. Just WHO are these people? Where does their financial support come from? They are in the paper weekly, yet nobody knows anything about them. I suspect they are just a few people propped up by a national oraganization, given money, and an attorney, and dumped into hot areas such as ours to sue and push their agenda.
I know several people that work for the USFS, and they will tell you that the FS has changed, become more liberal as enivronmentalist began flocking into the organization in the late 80's. Same with several other gov agencies. The enviro crowd is not static, they are well financed, well connected, and very strategic. They will have there agenda become reality at any cost. Look at what they have accomplished with the ESA. They effectively limited building and development over insignificant species and forced environmental impact statements at every turn. They have greatly diminished logging in the west, and slashed mining operations over water quality legeslation. Perhaps their crowning achievment was the re-introduction of the wolf, which will take population control from hunters, and give it to predators, thus greatly reducing the number of hunters in the field, and wrestling population control from state wildlife agencies, and handing it to friendly infiltrated federal agencies. Conspiracy or coincidence?

RE: Wolf, to shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
 

Good read there Muley and you're right. It has been an infusion of liberals and liberal thinking into these government agencies from the grass roots level along with highly funded, WHACKO activists. I mean seriously, where is the real and truthful education regarding wolves for the general public.It's on the sportsmans side, but it is our disagreement amongst each other that has hinderedwhat could be a very strong political opponent to the wolf introduction, and that's a shame.

That's one reason that you have to respect the state ofWyoming's stance. More hunting organizations as well as Western States should get on the same side of the fence and show their support and draw up an agenda of defense against the current Federal policy. There is still a lot of moneyand political poweron the table when it comes to the amount of resourses that hunters, and those that profit from hunting, possess, if they could just agree to focus it's use.

...plus we've got guns:D