Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
10-22-2005, 11:28 AM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: McCall Idaho USA
Posts: 753
Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
I was wondering if any knew what muzzleloaders you can use here in Idaho? I see in the regs that no 209 can be used, heck that's what Cabelas Catalogue is full of !! I'm hoping that a flintlock style isn't the only choice!!!!! Thanks for the help!!--------------ElkNut1
10-22-2005, 12:41 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crescent Valley, NV
Posts: 2,271
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
You shouldn't be limited to flintlock only.I believe there are inlines that can use regular primer caps. Also, you could look at the sidelock percussion (what I used this year for my elk). A .54 Percussion with a 430-475 grain bullet will put an elk flat for sure!! I got mine with a .50 caliber percussion anda 370 grain bullet this year. That was plenty, and I hope to get drawn next year so I can try it again!!
10-22-2005, 03:57 PM
#3
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: McCall Idaho USA
Posts: 753
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
Thanks for the help!! So, what's an inline?? Like who's the company or companies that make them? I ask because I don't see anything like that in the catalogues that aren't of the 209 variety!!
I apprecieate your help!---------------ElkNut1
I apprecieate your help!---------------ElkNut1
10-22-2005, 06:37 PM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
You got three basic tupes of ML's.
flint lock... uses and exposed hammer on the side of the rifle and a flash pan. THe hammer has a flint that strikes the flash pan and creates a spark igniting the powder in the pan and thus the powder charge in the barrel.
Side lock... still has an exposed hammer on the side of the gun but instead uses a percussion cap to ignite the powder charge.
In line... any ml rifle that has the ignition source directly behind, or inline with the powder charge. The benefits of an inline is that the spark from the primer/ cap does not have to make a turn to ignite the powder.
Mose all inlines will have different adapters so that you can use either a #11 percussion cap, musket cap, or a # 209 shotgun primer.
flint lock... uses and exposed hammer on the side of the rifle and a flash pan. THe hammer has a flint that strikes the flash pan and creates a spark igniting the powder in the pan and thus the powder charge in the barrel.
Side lock... still has an exposed hammer on the side of the gun but instead uses a percussion cap to ignite the powder charge.
In line... any ml rifle that has the ignition source directly behind, or inline with the powder charge. The benefits of an inline is that the spark from the primer/ cap does not have to make a turn to ignite the powder.
Mose all inlines will have different adapters so that you can use either a #11 percussion cap, musket cap, or a # 209 shotgun primer.
10-22-2005, 07:05 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crescent Valley, NV
Posts: 2,271
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
Ok, I just looked a little bit (in the Cabelas Catalog, and the Idaho Regs, which I have).
Your options are limited, but you should still be able to find a firearm that will work just fine. I will point out some options, and possible scenarios.
The regs state that you can't have a scope either, so you are limited to how far you can see to shoot. I am guessing this is maybe 125 yards? I shot my elk this year with a modest load at 90 yards, and that was "pushing it" with the load I had developed, but it worked, and I have meat in the freezer. Earlier in the week, I took a 150 yard shot at a cow and missed, hit WAY low, probably close to 20", but have not actually gone to the range to see where the POI would be at that range in real time.
Another issue is the caliber. The projectile diameter minimum is .428", and your barrel minimum is .50. So, this would allow you to use a sabot, as I see nothing in the regs that strictly prohibits them, except for during the "traditional" season. If you used a sabot then, the bullet would have to be a typical .44 Magnum size bullet, which are .429. FYI - I have a sidelock with a 1 in 48" twist. I can not get sabots to shoot very well in my gun, but I have only tried one type, and gave up, so that is not to say that the gun you purchase will not shoot sabots well.
So, here are the rifles that you have to choose from (assuming that inlines can't be shot with regular percussion caps, which I will follow up on in the blackpowder forum, and ask them in there)
http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Muzzleloaders%3A+Hawken+%28S ide+Locks%29
The top two there would be good choices. They both have 1 in 48” twists, which would handle round balls and conicals real well. My ML has this same twist and will print about 2” at 50 yds with the load I killed my elk with this year and with round balls.
Thompson Center also makes some fine firearms
http://www.tcarms.com/TC_HTML/TC_Muzzle01.htm
The top two on that page would work fine, as well as the first one in the second row that is stainless steel. They should all have 1 in 48” twists also
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/compchart/comp-chart.jsp?_requestid=51573
Those are all from Cabelas and should work just fine for any hunting you wish to do. I only marked those that are .50 or larger as that is the minimum for elk in ID. The most common and easiest to get bullets for would be .50 and .54.
As for powder, Pyrodex RS should work just fine for most uses.
Bullets – in the conical (full bore diameter) forms, anything over 350 grains will work. Mine was the 370 grain T/C Maxi Ball in .50 caliber this year. The Hornadys and Buffalo bullets are other options. As for sabot type bullets (if you rifle will shoot them), I have really no clue. There are so many combinations out there that it would take a year of weekends to try half of them.
If you do get a muzzle loader, start with something around 70% of max for your powder charge. You will probably get the best accuracy in the 80-90% range.
Good luck, and also look around the black powder forum if you want more details and specifics.
Your options are limited, but you should still be able to find a firearm that will work just fine. I will point out some options, and possible scenarios.
The regs state that you can't have a scope either, so you are limited to how far you can see to shoot. I am guessing this is maybe 125 yards? I shot my elk this year with a modest load at 90 yards, and that was "pushing it" with the load I had developed, but it worked, and I have meat in the freezer. Earlier in the week, I took a 150 yard shot at a cow and missed, hit WAY low, probably close to 20", but have not actually gone to the range to see where the POI would be at that range in real time.
Another issue is the caliber. The projectile diameter minimum is .428", and your barrel minimum is .50. So, this would allow you to use a sabot, as I see nothing in the regs that strictly prohibits them, except for during the "traditional" season. If you used a sabot then, the bullet would have to be a typical .44 Magnum size bullet, which are .429. FYI - I have a sidelock with a 1 in 48" twist. I can not get sabots to shoot very well in my gun, but I have only tried one type, and gave up, so that is not to say that the gun you purchase will not shoot sabots well.
So, here are the rifles that you have to choose from (assuming that inlines can't be shot with regular percussion caps, which I will follow up on in the blackpowder forum, and ask them in there)
http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Muzzleloaders%3A+Hawken+%28S ide+Locks%29
The top two there would be good choices. They both have 1 in 48” twists, which would handle round balls and conicals real well. My ML has this same twist and will print about 2” at 50 yds with the load I killed my elk with this year and with round balls.
Thompson Center also makes some fine firearms
http://www.tcarms.com/TC_HTML/TC_Muzzle01.htm
The top two on that page would work fine, as well as the first one in the second row that is stainless steel. They should all have 1 in 48” twists also
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/compchart/comp-chart.jsp?_requestid=51573
Those are all from Cabelas and should work just fine for any hunting you wish to do. I only marked those that are .50 or larger as that is the minimum for elk in ID. The most common and easiest to get bullets for would be .50 and .54.
As for powder, Pyrodex RS should work just fine for most uses.
Bullets – in the conical (full bore diameter) forms, anything over 350 grains will work. Mine was the 370 grain T/C Maxi Ball in .50 caliber this year. The Hornadys and Buffalo bullets are other options. As for sabot type bullets (if you rifle will shoot them), I have really no clue. There are so many combinations out there that it would take a year of weekends to try half of them.
If you do get a muzzle loader, start with something around 70% of max for your powder charge. You will probably get the best accuracy in the 80-90% range.
Good luck, and also look around the black powder forum if you want more details and specifics.
10-23-2005, 09:15 PM
#6
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: McCall Idaho USA
Posts: 753
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
Guys, thanks for the info!!
Charlie Brown, thanks for going the extra mile there, it wasn't expected, but apprecieated!!! I will defenitely take your thoughts into consideration when checking out these bad boys!!I'll be heading to the big cityin a couple of days and make some decisions, mostly from your feedback!! Thanks a bunch!!!!------------------------ElkNut / Paul
Charlie Brown, thanks for going the extra mile there, it wasn't expected, but apprecieated!!! I will defenitely take your thoughts into consideration when checking out these bad boys!!I'll be heading to the big cityin a couple of days and make some decisions, mostly from your feedback!! Thanks a bunch!!!!------------------------ElkNut / Paul
10-24-2005, 07:56 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crescent Valley, NV
Posts: 2,271
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
elknut1 - also check this thread out from the black powder forum. The gave some good information on what is possible with inlines.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1262277
Have fun when you go to Boise!!
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1262277
Have fun when you go to Boise!!
10-25-2005, 07:06 AM
#8
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: McCall Idaho USA
Posts: 753
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
charlie brown---Thanks!! I did look over the "black powder" forum and read what they related to the subject. Some of the things talked about are a bit confusing to a "greenhorn" <grin> I'm sure my trip to Boise will help out too!!------How you knew thatsurprised me!! <grin>
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
10-27-2005, 12:44 AM
#9
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location:
Posts: 1,063
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
hey i muzzleload for elk in idaho, and if i can't get one this weekend i plan on taking one down in the lengthy muzzle season. Any muzzleloader worth its salt with come with a replacement for the 209 primer that has a tool that unscrews the 209 out and loads the percusion one in. Takes about a minute! And then you are ready to go... one tip though is that you might want to rap the exposed cap area with saran wrap to keep water out otherwise when you pull the trigger you will get nothing more than a "phhshhfff...." and then some choice words from your mouth as the 7 by 7 runs a mile away. Good luck!
10-27-2005, 06:58 AM
#10
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: McCall Idaho USA
Posts: 753
RE: Muzzleloaders For Elk-??
Matt--Thanks!! That makes sense, being able to switch out primers, convienent too if I wanted to use it in another state that doesn't require the percussion style! Thanks again!! Good Luck this week on your elk!!
ElkNut1
ElkNut1