I understand, but as I said; details give them something to take exception too. If you can just convence them to stretch their own personal benchmark this year then maybe in a few years they'll raise it again. It's a path we all travel down and everyone drops off at different spots along the trail. Not everyone will enjoy every style of hunting but they may be encouraged to challenge themselves a little more, or just try something different. In VA you can dog hunt (let the flames begin). I enjoy dog hunting, occassionally, but I prefer stalking and stand hunting. I don't expect, nor do I want, everyone to enjoy the same things I do. I'm glad there are people who love living in a city, keeps them out of my woods. I know that wasn't your point, but I typed it for the benifit of others who don't seem to understand things as easily as others. LOL