Ditto regarding MLKeith & cayugad. I'm not a fan of the plastic disc holder, either. If you have a Wally World near you, I have seen some awfully good deals on a no frills T/C Black Diamond for under 150.00. Also, it appears that some K-Mart's are getting out of the gun business and I've seen some better deals from them at least where I live in Virginia. One in particular is getting rid of all of their Pyrodex loose powder for five bucks a bottle. I prefer Black Mag3 but I just couldn't turn down that deal and I do have a couple of ml's to use it on.