didnt mean to rub it in, butch. loudoun is a great place to hunt if you can find permission. i belong to 3 hunting clubs(none in loudoun), and have only hunted at 2 of them for a total of 4 days. i am glad that i dont have to do the wma thing. i would go crazy(questioning my sanity) going thru what your going thru w/ the dogs, other hunters, and lack of deer.. 1 thing i can say about loudoun is you at least see a deer 98% of the time. they may not be in bow/rifle range-but at least that helps pass the long hours on stand.