Just so we're all clear, I have no problem with us all having varying degrees of time and commitment to deer hunting, golfing, or whatever. My
intended point is that no one has the right to demand that the deer continue to be managed for pure numbers just so it's easier to get an immature buck. Nothing is wrong with being satisfied with a young buck till, collectively, doing it has a negative impact on the herd. In Pennsylvania with roughly a million hunters we have two choices. Limit the number of hunters who can pursue bucks or impose some age restriction so that some bucks get to live to a more natural breeding age.
AR is a less than perfect way to do that but it is the best practical idea I've seen so far.
NJ_B just what part of that didnt you understand?
And I know you said you meant it to be just directed at him, but what you typed seemed to indicate an entire class of hunters, actually, "tired, medicore hunters".
I meant exactly what I said. That statement was meant specifically for him in the context of his hypocracy about shooting so many BB's when he said right here on this forum that it was a bad by product of the increased pressure on does. It was meant for NO ONE else, unless there are others out there that would rant against something so loudly and then go ahead and do it because it was the convenientthing to do.
My grandfather was a tired, and probably by your standards, a mediocre hunter in his last days, but no one has the right to tell him to get out of the woods and take up golf. He would have been more thrilled with a fork horn than you probably would be with a little 8 point. I just get sick of people acting like there is something wrong with that. That's what hunting is all about, and if you can't see that, than I feel sorry for you.
I would never criticize your grandfather or anyone else like him in the example you just used...... unless he shot that forkhorn while believing that it was a bad thing to do for the good of the herd and critcizing the PGC for allowing it. That's ALL I was criticizing about old DD! You assumed too much (my age, situation etc)and read between the lines too much.
So, basically, you are belittling other hunters not for the health of the herd, and not even for a guarantee of a bigger buck, but just for the possibility that there may be more big bucks in the woods. I for one do not think it's right for anyone to deprive a hunter the thrill or enjoyment of taking a smaller buck, or to denigrate them for enjoying taking a smaller buck, just so there is a chance I could see more bigger bucks.
Like I said, seemed pretty ignorant to me.
Show me where I said anything to denigrate someone for taking a small buck! I have said several times that we need to work on a culture change that holds an harvesting immature buck in higher regard than harvesting a doe. There certainly are a lot of people who look down on harvesting does. My guess from your post here is that you might be one of them.
And please don't give me the "health of the herd" line, that is a lot of smoke and mirrors. AR have not been proven in any study I'm aware of to improve the health of the herd. The genetic composition of a buck does not change as he goes from 1.5 yrs old to 4.5 yrs old. That buck will pass on the same genes breeding as a yearling as he would breeding at 4, 5, or 6 years old. If anything, there is evidence from recent studies that indicate antler restrictions actually adversely affect the herd genetics by intentionally protecting ALL bucks with inferior genetics. It's called high-grading.
You seem to forget one little problem as it relates to PA... we were virtually letting zero bucks get past 1.5 years. Yes, some high grading will occur but at least now some bucks will be allowed to age past the stupid adolscent stage and then hopefully some of the best learn in that first year how to survive beyond 2.5. Could this be part of the reason for this years lower kill?
Another factor many people miss when talking about deer management is that programs like this aggressvie herd reduction increase the chances of inbreeding in a herd. In the natural order of things, an adult doe will drive off her buck fawn the following year to prevent this inbreeding. It's called buck dispersal, and I'm sure you guys are aware of it. In many managed areas, hunters strive to pass on the buttons, and kill mature does. They do this in part to prevent buck dispersal (to have more bucks on their land), which in turn leads to unnatural inbreeding. This can also have a negative affect on the helath of the herd.
Please, give me a break!!! Increased hunting pressure causes LESS dispersal????
Many of you guy's like to claim it's purely selfish for them to shoot small bucks, but the exact same thing can be applied to the AR situation. In that, those who want to shoot bigger bucks, want more of them, and therefore, are willing to deprive "regular" hunters the chance to shoot a deer that makes them happy in order to have more big bucks for the trophy hunters to choose from. The goals of those who denigrate "buck" hunters are just as selfish as those they belittle. In fact, I would argue that the goals and aims of those people are more selfish, soley because they aim to deprive someone else of taking a deer that holds such value to them, just so that AR guys will have more targets in the woods
Again, who did I call selfish other than one person who demonstrated exactly what I'd call the epitomy of selfishness.
Obviously you and i disagree about deer management but if an apology is owed here you owe one. I responded to one particular glaring example of one posters hypocracy and selfishness and you responded by assuming incorrect facts and putting words in my mouth.
I didnt attack you, I didnt attack your grandfather, I didnt attack any hunter because of his standards being different than mine let alone any group of hunters. I pointed out the double standards of ONE GUY period.
And I'm the ignorant one?????