I used to be fairly involved in this 'debate' over on Huntingpa, but I finally got sick of going in circles. I agreed to disagree so to speak. I do read this thread every day and I'm quite familiar with DD and his antics. Between you, Doug and DD there is pretty much equal representation of both sides....DD is just against the whole program no mater what. You and Doug aren't much different, but Doug's more on the fence about the program as a whole. This has gone rounds and rounds for a few years now and there is no end in sight. Guys aren't fighting it that hard anymore on the other board either....I think every one is sick of fighting and just waiting for something to happen.