ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Jeff, it is NOT reasonable to assume an arrow reacts the same way when it hits flesh as it does when it hits an inanimate object, like a target.... unless it hits solid bone, like the ball and socket in the shoulder, and immediately slams to a dead stop.
What I'm saying is that it's relative..While the effect on a softer hit may be reduced..even greatly, it still should react in a similar but less "intense" way..i.e. Aluminum should not have as much oscillation on that soft hit, but do not forget the oscillation will be reduced by a similar % on the carbon arrow. The effect may very well be diminshed by 90%, but the carbon arrow will still have the advantage 'cos it doesn't have nearly as much in the first place.
On a broadside hit where the arrow knicks a couple of ribs, it's not going to have much resistance. An arrow going a mere 200 fps when it hits a deer is going to whip through the deer in about .008 of a second, assuming a 20" wide ribcage. Doesn't give that arrow much time to flex, does it. By the time the arrow could react to the impact, it's already through the deer and gone.
Actually it has quite a bit of time to flex. I know you've seen all the high speed video camera stuff from Easton before. Arrows go through all kinds of contortions leaving the bow (as does the bow itself) in the matter of a second. At that point of impact, even on a rib or hide where there is a counteracting force (however small), I cannot imagine their not being oscillation whatsoever in any shaft regardless of arrow makeup.
Talk about small diameter and friction. What's the difference in friction between a carbon arrow with stiff plastic vanes and a 2419 wearing feathers? The carbon shaft is smaller and, naturally, has less friction, but those vanes! The 2419 has more surface area and more friction on the shaft, but those feathers slide right through. Prove it to yourself. Grab the shaft of a vane fletched arrow and pull the fletching through your closed fist. Then do the same with a feather fletched arrow.
I don't disagree with you on these points. I'm a feather man, and you and I both know why. Vanes are nothing more than a convenience in my book. Convenient for fletching time, and convenient on the wallet. They do nothing for accuracy, and have thier own problems like flutter and pentration impeding drag.
I agree about momentum/KE being over-argued. Like I said, you don't have one without the other. Like YOU said, with a high performance bow you can stack up a pile of KE and do well. On the other hand, while you're stacking up that KE with speed, you're also stacking up the momentum. That's why a high KE arrow will penetrate. Not so much because of the energy but because it's also carrying a lot of momentum. Don't take my word for it. Do the math!
Again I do not disagree. I was just making a point of distinction where the line between KE and momentum blurs..where KE is "just as good" of a factor for determining penetration potential (all other things being equal).
It's easier and quicker to pile on the momentum with arrow weight than it is to get it with speed, but you do get it with speed. Still, momentum is the key, as far as I'm concerned.
Again, I personally believe there is a "blurry" line where KE and momentum are relative enough to each other that using KE as an indicator is as good an indiactor as momentum (i.e. where momentum is not "key"..though that is not to say it's unimportant, just less so)
Where I get my dander up is when KE snobs start saying you must have X amount of KE in order to ethically hunt such and such animals. Not only are they operating with a false premise, their BS is dangerous to youth, women, disabled and traditional hunters, who cannot shoot high poundage bows or whose bows cannot churn out gobs of KE. Momentum is a much better indicator and is easily achievable for most people.
Who you callin' a snob??[:@]
. Agreed, as I laid out in "scenario 1" in my intitial post, momentum indeed should be the determining factor. However the opposite is true as well...when a certain threshold is reached KE is just as viable a means as momentum..the problem is defining where that threshold is. We can argue 'til we are blue in the face, but the game law makers have to make a distinction and go with what they feel is an adequate simple to use indicator. I agree though, it may very well be incorrect.
....BUT, you have to have make intelligent choices in arrow selection, broadhead selection and shot selection. You have to have the bow well tuned. You have to execute the shot properly and place the arrow accurately.
This is the crux of the matter...all the KE or momentum in the world is not worth a hill of beans unless you adhere to what I just quoted you as saying.
Of course, those same choice and performance issues are imperative no matter whether you're shooting a wimpy rig or a mongo rig. It's easy for the hunter to blame the arrow for his failure, even though it's hunter's fault because he chose the wrong arrow to begin with.
And as you have confirmed here
Make no mistake Arthur, I'm not arguing with you. I just that I feel this is one of those cases where the line is blurry, and there are no hard and fast rules for everyone.
I agree with you on many of your points re: momentum, but I believe the amount of importance of certain factors and under what circumstances is where we will need to just agree to diasgree.
Always fun though.
Glad to see ya back and in the groove