Yeah ;I know what you mean Dave.I have about 5 stands(four fixed type and one climber)and don't need anymore I would definately sell the loc-ons if I bought new, my garage is really clutterd with hunting and fishing garb.17"18" sure doesn't seem like alot .I have found the most ideal size tree is ones that I can wrap my arms around and overlap my hands(different kind of tree hugger)The old Loc-ons play hell on my back and keister.Jim I think Chippewa wedge loc still has the free video's by request.They show some interesting things in the video.Bill D>