these ain't your mama's doves your shooting at, these are the real thing. 12 gauge, 3.5," #6's all the way. idaho, either you are a lot better wingshot then most people i know, or you hunt in the open country. here in vt, it's softwoods, brush, hardwoods. sometimes you need to do a bit of logging when trying to hit a bird, lol. that's why you need the 3.5 #6's in a 12. almost forgot, it isn't a grouse, doggone it! you are going out for either a partridge, or just plain bird hunting!