Hey loner I just checked my 2003 remington catalog there 17 hmr is a 17 grain. The 25 grain is for the 17 remington which is a centerfire hope this helps. As for the 17 grain it is plenty for small game. Last Sat took five squirrels four head shots at under 25 yards would take half the head off Then 80 yard shot off hand holding between eyes took him right in the nose suprised me more than the squirrel.