The bullets willtill is talking about are made by Cecil Epps, He is the one I mentioned and where I get mine from. They are also the bullets I recommended. He is the one that I learned so much from. It is more than just what kind of group you can get at 100 yards, although that is important. It is what kind of group you can get at 200 yards and what kind of performance you can get on soft skinned animals like deer. These bullets pass that test with flying colors. Don't buy them from me. Get them from Cecil less I offend anyone!