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Old 05-23-2015, 07:46 AM
  #27  
super_hunt54
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
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Originally Posted by Finepoint
Glad I could get some thoughtful conversation going!
The purpose of picking a point of specific internal anatomy is the "aim small, miss small" principle. If you choose a 150 lb deer and draws a 3" circle around the back wall of the right atrium, you will encompass all the major structures of the chest while avoiding the major (edible) muscle groups. The critter will most likely drop within 3-5 seconds. This is what I'd call a humane kill with a low margin for error.
Younger shooters may not know that, prior to about 1980, a sporting rifle and factory ammo capable of sub-MOA precision was a never-realized dream. Before that (the introduction of hammer-forged barrels and computer-controlled machining) 1 1/2 to 2" groups were considered quire accurate and most off-the-rack lever guns didn't break 2 1/2. But people kept within reasonable ranges and did quite well. Even the vaunted house of Holland and Holland was happy with 3" groups for their bolt rifles. A Type 99 Arisaka made in 1943 that shoots 3MOA is considered a tack-driver (most do 5-6MOA - battle rifles shoot at very large tacks) and will put all its bullets in the target area at 100 yds. That's all I expect it to do, just like I don't expect my old '53 Chev to go 150MPH. If I were to target a critter at longer range, I'd simply pick a different, more precise rifle or pass on the shot. Either way, my integrity is intact and that is what ethics is all about.
"Finepoint" is an example of two of my favorite things: paradox and irony. Actually I picked it because I needed a user ID quickly and that was what was written of the pen I was holding at the time. I grew up under a family tree festooned with engineers and obsessive attention to detail, but have spent my career working in the endlessly sloppy world of biology and human behavior, so I can see both perspectives. (Call it Camp Perry meets Kalashnikov) I tend to obsess over tools (guns/loads) but i also remember that they are used by humans, not cyborgs. Mostly I do a lot of testing because I am keenly aware of how much we humans love to fudge the data or test parameters to meet our own self-deceptions. It has much more to do with ego than physics.
Horse pucky there Finepoint. I just happen to own 3 pre 1964 Marlins that each and every one will drive UNDER 1" at 100 yards all day! It was actually AFTER 1980 that Marlin as well as Winchester Levers began to truly suck wind. Between 1965 and 1979 they were okay in general but nowhere near the quality that you got pre-64. That's why pre-64 Marlins and Wins are such prized rifles.

Many top rifle makers made rifles more than capable of MOA before 1980. The problem wasn't so much with the rifles as it was the ammunition quality and consistency. Re-loading was nowhere near as big as it is today so all that data from pre-1980 was highly misrepresented as being the rifle manufacturer and not the true problem which was Ammo consistency. Like Nomercy up there, I have more firearms than most sane men in this country and MANY of them are old war horses. I little love at the re-loading bench makes most all of them tack driving machines. Not ALL but most. Some are like you said, without hope unless I ruin the value of them and re-barrel or true up the action or something because they were actual war rifles and shot out.
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