OP stated: "I guess mabey what I should do is have them both back out to shooting in a hunting situations. Off a bench is one thing but put him on sticks, shoot freehand some. All I know is that it is up to him and his father and at the end of the day it their elk hunt, I am just trying to help out."


***That is exactly what I would do in this situation because shooting off a bench, as several of us have now mentioned, isn't like in the field conditions a good share of the time. That is probably the biggest problem with people missing animals when they hunt out west. I don't know how many times I've seen guys taking standing shots at animals when there was plenty of time for them to go down to a sitting or kneeling position or even better to rest on a pack. tree, etc. to get a decent shot. If an animal is at any real distance it doesn't take much of a wiggle to miss, or even worse, wound the animal. I also couldn't agree more with all the comments in the previous post about the whiz bang big calibers that guys shackle themselves with when a 30-06 is all they need. Nope, they see Joe Hunter on the tube with a .338 and a fancy adjustable scope set to shoot 1000 yards and that's what they have to have to get er done. Then they can't tolerate the recoil and only shoot the thing 3 or 4 times, hit a pie plate at 100 yards on the range and call it good to go! If the boy can't practice properly under field conditions with the 30-06, then by all means let him shoot the 30-30 with a good bullet that has been mentioned in the thread and he'll just have to decrease the yardage on the hunt to what the 30-30 is capable of and as several have stated, that will be somewhat under 200 yards on an elk. Good luck and kudos for helping prepare the kid and his Dad for what should be a great hunt.

Pete---I'm not saying the 30-30 is marginal or unethical IF the shots are kept to a proper distance like you mentioned earlier. I use the term marginal when we're talking about distances increasing to the point where the energy doesn't come close to matching an 06! Your anology of the muzzleoader killing lots of elk doesn't surprise me. What really surprises me is that by now someone hasnt come on the thread and said that if an arrow can kill all those big animals, then why are you debating rifle calibers! It seems like that always happens in a thread discussing something like this. Obviously there is a big difference when an arrow is designed to bleed an animal out and there is a tracking job involved, while with a rifle there is also a lot of shock to the nervous system and a bigger wound channel that also enters into play with killing that animal quicker besides just the loss of blood.