seattlesetters, it seems your observations are based on hunting chukars. Your big running setters would be less than useless to me in Ohio. The thickets, ravines, and briars the grouse live in require closer working dogs. The grouse would never hold for 45 minutes while I looked for my dog, either. Often times when the birds are in the bottoms, we would walk the edges & let the dogs work the nasty stuff. If a dog was to point in there, we' d have to go flush the bird. Hunting with Springers this isn' t the case. Shooting is much easier, as is the walking. I' ve hunted quail in fence rows with my dogs. After about a half hour they figured it out. Stay in the fence rows, not the fields. If the dogs got a little too far ahead, a toot on the whistle sat them down until we got closer. Finding wounded birds is something flushing dogs shine at. A running pheasant is every pointing dog' s nightmare. Easily handled by flushers. To say that some breeds are not bird dogs because they don' t fit your style is very close-minded. I' ve seen some pointing breeds that couldn' t find the birds already brought to bag by my Springers. My point is this, my dogs wouldn' t work for you. And yours wouldn' t work for me. It all boils down to what you require of a bird dog, and what pleases you. My vote goes for the English Springer Spaniel.