Last night I decided to try some other arrows I already own. My older blackhawks grouped a little better than the carbon expresses. I only had one 2514 and it flew very well. I also had several 2314 superlights that grouped great. I put new helical fletching on the blackhawks and the 2314' s last night and plan to try them all again tonight. I' m never buying cheap carbons again, I think I' m sticking to the aluminums for awhile. It seems like I go through this every year and I still don' t learn.........