Originally Posted by
skiking
1" groups primarily don't happen at 1000 yds because of many more factors that come into play that FAPP aren't factors at 100 yds. If the gun is capable of it, 1" groups with a 4x scope at 100 yds are very possible. Trying to equate 1" groups at 100 yds with a 4x and 1" groups at 1000 yds with a 30x scope is illogical.
I believe you missed my point, AND you didn't read my other posts. My first posts recognized that OF COURSE the shooter has to troubleshoot the root source for the problem to make sure that he doesn't have other problems, like poor skill, an unstable base, shifting rings, moving zero, etc etc.
BEYOND THAT, as I said before in my other posts, even if all of the other variables have been exhausted, then it might be because he's asking too much of his scope, because using a low magnification scope introduces too much variability in POA.
Frankly, I completely disagree that it's "illogical" to compare shooting at 100yrds to 1000yrds. By the time we get over scope and put finger to trigger, regardless of range, we have already made our adjustments for environmentals. By the time we break the shot, we are assuming our estimations were correct and that POI will meet POA. HOWEVER, if I don't have enough scope to ensure that I had a consistent POA from one shot to the next, I can't expect my shots to mate up. Yes, making the estimations to assure that POI = POA is more difficult at long range, but the level of control over the sighting hold, i.e. maintaining consistent POA is equally difficult at 100yrds with a 4x as it is at 1000yrds with a 32x. It doesn't matter if you can hit what you're aiming at unless you can aim at what you want to hit.
For the humor of it, if I represent that each shot's POA is equal to it's POI, then for my 3 shot group: POA1 = POI1, POA2 = POI2, POA3=POI3... HOWEVER, if I can't ensure that my control system, the sights, is accurate enough to have a consistent POA, my shots won't group: if POA1 =/= POA2 =/= POA3, then because POAn = POIn, POI1 =/= POI2 =/= POI3 (=/= means "doesn't equal).
Essentially, for ALL shooting at ANY range, we have 2 challenges 1) make sure our POA = center of the target when we break the shot, and 2) make sure we account for all variables properly to ensure that POI = POA. Part of challenge 1, when shooting for group, is that our POA is consistent. Even on a pencil drawn dot, our groups suffer if we hold POA on the right side of the dot for the first shot, and the left side of the dot for the 2nd shot. So basically, it becomes 1) POAn = POAx = center of target, and 2) POA = POI. Challenge 1 is in our hold and technique, challenge 2 is in our estimations and corrections. (POAn, n represents any single shot, i.e. POA1, POA2, POA3.... ,POAn-1, POAn, POAn+1... Also POAx, x similarly represents any selected shot, but a different shot than that selected for POAn).
The longer the range, the harder it is to make POI = POA (relationship is directly dependent upon range), but making POA = POA = center target is different. POA = POA is dependent upon the relative size of the target to the visible field, regardless of range. The bigger the target appears, no matter what the range, the better you can aim. It's the old addage "aim for a hair", the better you can see the target, the closer you can incrementally ensure you are to the center.
No matter how well a world champion 1000yrd shooter can estimate windage and drop, if you take him from a 32x scope down to a 24x scope, his groups will suffer. Equally, if you give him a 9x scope and a 4x scope, at 100yrds, he will shoot better with the 9x than the 4x. Can't hit what you can't see, as they say.
Target sighting consistency is an area that's commonly overlooked by most shooters. Again, it doesn't matter how consistent EVERYTHING ELSE IS, your rest, your hold, your trigger pull, your ammo MV, etc, if your POA isn't consistent, then you can't expect your POI to be consistent (aka, small groups). No matter how well you do on Challenge 2 (POI=POA), if you fail at Challenge 1, you fail.
Any of us that have spent any time shooting benchrest have had at least ONE shot where we've called our own shots because we knew it was off target when we pulled the trigger. It's that sinking feeling that hits you as fast as your lock time. You KNOW that bullet is going to hit "left" even before it gets there. If a shooter's scope doesn't let him tell if he's shooting the left side or the right side of a 1" dot, that introduces AT LEAST 1" of variability.
Kind of like answering the question "what does that weigh?" Is "about 500lbs" good enough? Or do you need to know that it's exactly 517lbs? Comparatively answer the question: "What were you aiming at?" A shooter that answers "I aimed at the center of the intersection of the X" will group a lot better than the shooter that answers "I aimed at the target".