Oh my point you may have missed, but look again and what I said was that load will kill at 50 yards and I based it on witnessing my father in law shoot a deer and kill it without any issues with 60 grains. Which I didn't think would be much different than 50. My point is I saw it with my own 2 eyes in real life and didn't read about it somewhere and pass it off as absolute truth. I have no desire in gaining experience in reading things off the internet to debate with you. When you want to talk about real hunts and not simulated ones I may (but probably won't) debate with you.