OK i see them now lol. i just missed them first time around. I read a article by Tony Bridges saying that he shoots the .451 PT .260& .300 naked out of a .45 cal.with excellent accuracy. he grips the bullet with a pair of pliers and taps the bottom on a hard surface so it expands enough to engage the rifling on the way down.i was amazed at the velocity he was getting shooting them naked.Ray