same has smokepolehall said tight groups can cost to much money. i have done it at 30yds cant say I was trying to hit the back of the arrow but trying to get a tight groups stuff happens.The first year my son started shoot my Horton summit and Robinhood out at 25 yds we stopped. now we shoot at balloons little water balloons we blow then up to the size of big golf balls but not a tennis ball and hang them from the ceiling that is a challenge field tips can be hard to pop them but my slick take care of them easy. we try to do this free hand to get better control when we have to shoot free hand in the woods.