In the final analysis it all boils down to this. If you disrupt enough vital organs to cause life supporting function to cease to exisit....how you did it is not important! I also understand that when you factor into the mix things like inexperience, lack of skill, or lack of ethics, you have increased potential for misuse and/or abuse. Because of those reasons there is some validity to the argument to use a more efficient tool to do the job, (in this case....kill a deer). And I do not have an argument with you if you recommend a more modern cartridge to an inexperienced hunter. (You are correct in your assertion it is easier to effect a kill to a longer range with a cartridge like.....a .270 Winchester for instance, than a .30-30.) Where we differ on the argument is when you unequivically say that the .30-30 is NOT sufficient to kill a deer! When used in a responsible manner there is not a deer alive that cannot be killed with a .30-30 under usual field conditions!

Where I have extensively hunted whitetails in Pennsylvania the longest shot I have ever had to take with a rifle was approximately 95 yards. (My longest shot on a whitetail period was on Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland with a Saboted Shotgun Slug....a stepped off 115 yards.) The shot taken at 95 yards happened to be with a .356 Winchester using a 200 Power Point. The deer took two additional steps, fell, and slid back to where it was when hit. The closest deer I have ever shot in Pennsylvania with a rifle was about 1 and a half yards off my muzzle using a .308 Winchester loaded with 170 grain bullet intended for .30-30 velocities but handloaded to approximate .300 Savage velocities. The two I mentioned earlier that some nitwit(s) had previously wounded with a .22 rimfire...one was killed with a .30-06 using a 150 Hornady....and the other with the .308 using one of those previously mentioned handloads. (That deer by the way had both hind quarters ruined/spoiled from infection where it had been shot with the rimfire. The bullet had also nearly cut in half it' s reproductive organ. So how much do you believe that deer suffered!?!) I considered myself fortunate to have sacrificed my permit to end it' s misery.

The point of all the above paragraph is to demonstrate that idiocy lies in the " hands of the user" , not the " tool" ! It was also to show that of the dozens and dozens of whitetail I have harvested each and every one of them was not only within the effective range of the .30-30, but I could have cleanly killed any of them with my short .44 Magnum Marlin. (I have actually killed deer with both the .357 Magnum in a handgun....limited my range to less than 50 yards. And a .44 Magnum handgun....and decided not to exceed 100 yards....but never actually shot beyond about 45 yards.) In every of the above kills a .30-30 would have worked just as well. Does it provide less margin for error than say a .30-06? Yes, it does! But don' t ever think the problem lies within the cartridge. The problem lies SOLELY with the USER!

Before you accuse me of having no experience at shooting game beyond short range. I will tell you this. I have extensive experience with varmints, (groundhogs in particular), to over 400 yards. And I have shot other big game in Germany (the former FRG) and Alaska at ranges beyond those mentioned above on whitetails. Actually to just over 300 yards on Caribou, (which by the way is about what I consider my maximum at unwounded big game). So please....make the distinction with where the problem really is.....the USER! Not the tool! (Ever try to turn a screw with a hammer?)