Okay, now we have some points that we agree on. You are correct that many times the .30-30 is selected for all of the wrong reasons...(ie. Grandpa used one, it' s cheap, and/or it was recommended by someone with little or no experience with it, or any other cartridges' use). You are also correct when you say it can be a terrible wounder when misused! And in comparison to even the aged .30-06 for instance.....it is rather " anemic" . I could not agree with you more when you say that many of its' users are neither educated about ballistics, and could care less. And when you take all of this into consideration it has drastic potential for misuse!

Now let me say where we do not see eye to eye. Some hunters, (that may be very knowledgeable), make a conscious decision to use a tool, (and that is all that any firearm is), that requires the hunter to place limitations. If that were not true we could simply throw out all bows, handguns, and muzzleloaders. Some of us do not enter the woods with our " ONLY" goal being.....to be able to kill our intended game with the most efficient tool for the purpose. We intentionally decide to add a " handicap" to increase the challenge. If you do not have the discipline to turn down an " iffy" shot....then don' t challenge yourself in that manner. But the truth of the matter is that no matter what weapon you choose to use....it has limitations. And if you knowingly exceed those limitations when shooting at live game animals....YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE! There is no other nice way of saying it. If you can not be ethical....stay out of the field and woods.

You are also right about SLOBS. (Now I know that sometimes inexperience is a factor.) But once again....those are the same people that do " STUPID" things regardless of the tools they are using. One of the most difficult tasks I find myself up against all of the time is trying to convince an uneducated (read that ignorant) person that guns are not BAD things. But that they are capable of being used for BAD things when in the hands of BAD people. Let us not fall into the trap of blaming the " OBJECT" when it is the responsibility of the object' s USER!

I have killed two deer that some moron(s), (probably during Pennsylvania' s squirrel season), had shot with a .22 rimfire. Now I could say that all .22 rimfires are terrible tools and not fit for their intended purpose. But I won' t! What I will say is when you put a tool into the hands of foolish people...sometimes foolish things occur! Let' s not misplace where the real fault is!!!

P.S. One other thing we agree on....in hands of an average user I don' t consider the .223 an effective whitetail cartridge. (Yes I know it works.....but under field conditions it is NOT a good choice.)