longbowman, seems like we all sorta jumped you on this. I think you were defending trad guys average proficiency & I for one, apologize for the "atmosphere" of my post. It certainly wasn't meant like it prolly reads. I just don't think there is a true "measuring stick" or that there is even a need for one. Dick said it very well, "Anything less than all kills at your hunting range is unacceptable." Some ppl will always overextend their limitations no matter their choice of equipment. See, ya can't change a guys heart w/tests, classes, measuring sticks etc & that's what it really boils down too IMO. Thanks for standing up for us longbowman!