I had forgot I even made this a while back, so here is a update. I was using the Hoppe's and tried butches bore shine also. I may just be expecting to much, but I consider clean when you run a wet patch down it and it comes out the same color it when in. I did not get this with Hoppe's or butches. Then went to sweets and had to clean per their directions six times before I had clean sweets patches coming out, that is patches with no blue, then fallowed it up with Kroil I had clean patches. Now I have been cleaning after every trip to the range with sweets for three times, first one comes out blue, second has a tint of blue, and third is clear, just to make sure two was all i needed, then about ten wet patches with Kroil and the patches come out as clean as they go in, and twice I have tried Hoppe's to make sure and the Hoppe's comes out just as clean. So now I feel like my barrel is clean and not in doubt. Also another thing I have been doing is swabbing the barrel with alcohol patches just before shooting. Read this on several competition forums. The logic was that most of the carbon fouling comes from oil in the barrel. After doing this I noticed my fouling shots are almost as close as my good shots and the gun is alot cleaner when I clean it with just kroil before sweets. Used to get real dark patches at first, but not after the alcohol process the patches are alot cleaner.