tailcrackin

I dont say fetch at any point....its all done asa "natural environment"....retrieve, bird comes up as pup....dog gets to run it down an retrieve.......
Again, dogs read the eyes, voice and touch from us......so when it picks up the bird to retrieve.....ya gotta feed the action....woohoo atta boy, man what a dog, woo hoo......our voice is saying to the dog, or in the dogs mind......."man, dad really likes when I do this"
Earlier I had mentioned ff being a crutch, as house rule, it usually is.......but there are some dogs that dont want to fetch, so I will rephrase what I said, as a half crutch.

Dogs shouldt have to be told what to do after teh flush, or prior the point.....if you do the job fully, to the best or your and the dogs abilities......it should respect the bird...and you, whoa doesnt teach the dog to respect the bird, it is only a word that controls the dog...and desire most of the time.....and what you will see is a dog ALOTTA times...slowly slip through, because they either melt on the voice, or get intimidated to do the stop, there is no need in hollering at the dog if it moves after the flush. You do the job correctly, and you wont. Here is an old whoa topic write up that I saved......it says roughly what happens in teh dogs mind as its being taught. It is very good read. Thanks Jonesy


Honestly , I am ashamed of how I trained dogs a few years ago. I had
broke dogs but they didn't look good doing it, I wasn't training them
happy. I talked with my mentor about how I could get more out of my
dogs and make them look like a million bucks. This leads me to
answering your next question that I quoted from your last post.

I will try to explain it the way I was explained to from my mentor.
It can be long but bear with me and keep an open mind.

I was asked if I was educated and for how long. I answered 16 years
of education. He told me that I should be experienced with all that
education in writing the letter "A", since I probably started
learning how to do this in preschool.

I was handed a piece of paper and a pen and told me to right down the
letter "A" I did as instructed. A blank piece of paper had the
letter "A" written on it.

"A"

He then asked me again ,....Jim, Could you please write down the
letter "A" for me. I did as instructed, the piece of paper now looked
like this .

"A A"

With a little sterner voice he told me JIM, could you please write
the letter "A" for me. My paper looked like this.

"A A a"

I now sensed frustration in his voice, he told me, "I am asking you
once again....Could you please write down the letter "A" on the piece
of paper I gave you. It now looked like this..

"A A a a"

He sat there for a minute and paused... I got a little nervous, he
went back to a calm voice and asked me if I could write down the
letter "A" for him on the piece of paper, it now looked like this...

"A A a a A"

Now with a disturbed look on his face and his demeanor was totally
diferent, almost in a defensive mode, now his voice was raised , JIM
COULD YOU PLEASE WRITE DOWN an "A"! on the piece of paper I gave you,
so I did it looked like this..

"A A a a A an a"

He looked at my piece of paper very angry at this point and asked me,
Could you please write down on the piece of paper the letter "A". Now
it looked like this...

"A A a a A an a A"

He asked me to show him the piece of paper. he said ok lets look at
this and talk about what you wrote......

I asked you to write down the letter "A" and you did that correctly.
Then I asked you to write down the letter "A " again, and you did
that correctly, now on the third one you wrote down a lower case "a",
why did you do that? he asked. I stated that I understood him the
first two times and I thought I did that correctly, then I was trying
to figure out the third time what he was really wanting me to do? So
I made the lower case "a" This went on and on through all the letters
I wrote down on the piece of paper. He asked me why I was so
inconsistant in what he was asing me to do. I told him his demeanor
changed and I actually got tired of doing it and was ready to quit
his little game. I was confused and didn't really understand what he
was asking me to do.

That is when the light bulb turned on for me. ", "Dogs are alot like
people!"

If I asked the dog to do what I was asking of him and he did it, that
is what I wanted him to do, he then did it the second time correctly
when asked. Then why would you ask him to do it a third time if he
did it once or twice correctly? This is where experience and reading
the dog correctly comes in handy.....knowing when to stop and keeping
them happy and loose.

I should have stopped there and put him up happy. If I kept going
trying to get it perfect, I may only confuse the dog and not progress
as if I stopped there and put him up when he did what I was asking of
him. Remember...there is always tomorrow. If you are consistant in
training and don't over do the training you will gain more in the
long run.

Does this make sense to you?

The reason I told you to whoa the dog a long ways away after getting
him loose is, if the dog is a long ways away,and you have the
training down, (stimulatation and verbal) the dog is too far away to
come back to your side. If he tries, you have a solid foundatation
laid to correct him.

Now this is a copy from nother post ways back with Jim Guthrie,

Thanks, Jonesy