Mite, and others, hopefully this might help, [/align]Everything we do with dogs should be a routine in one way or another, whether or not its just loading an unloading, bird work, obedience work, travel, chain gangs, retrieving, whatever....it should all try and stay in a form of routine....dogs are creature of habit, weteachthem our routine, what and how we want things, with our patience and time, they comply. They learn to understand what an how we want, by our teaching......if they don't do this....this happens, if they do this....nothing happens.....most prefer nothing to happen. You put a dog in an environment to be successful, and it will....immediately, or with some time...but it will, they want to succeed.[/align][/align]Methods of training.......biggest method, is patience, confidence, read the dog, and patience. Styles of training, that can be a whole nother ball field, With the style I use, it works very well for me and my timing, it is very simple, and black and white.Mydogs dont get confused, and theowners dont get confused.It works with all breeds.They can betough as nails, and softer than soft.You don't need a bunch of extra bells and whistles to work a dog, I will not argue about training, and will not argue aboutthe styles. But you, and others have known me long enough, I will supply the info needed to try and get a start with the fix, its hard helping on the internet, because you never get the whole story, so we gotta sorta weed through the bad, to get to the good. I will usually offer my #, the ones that are serious, will call.[/align][/align]The FF issues, if I have a pup, or young dog here that enjoys the natural retrieve, I will make it happen....through out the training time that the dog is here. The biggest thing that I see and feel. Is the average, will get a decent retrieve, and not let the dog carry the item, and be allowed to show it off. They get in a big hurry to get it from the dog, and throw it again. That is when the boogers start....... or they do way to many, at each session. Now,some dogs are ok to that, but as a house rule, most aren't, people don't think that, so dog gets a chance to fail......instead of being done.....with the retrieves.[/align]When I start a dog, I do no limb tossing, or ball stuff, I am worried about it wanting to retrieve the bird. I will do wings some but not really that much, I will start the work on birds, and building the desire...plus start the handle, and the final being the retrieve. In my program, on what an how I do....for me this works very well.[/align]With your dog, you aren't worried about the retrieve, so why risk boogering the dog up it totally?That's is the same deal as training, as soon as the dog shows you its understanding the retrieve part, people automatically start something else.........before the dog totally proves to you that "it has got it." So the corners get cut in the FF drill also, come off table to quick, or start ecollar to fast, alot of stuff plain an simple gets boogered up, because of hurrying, and cutting corners...plus not allowing to be a pup for a while. I can have a retriever that is between 3-5 mo. retrieving to hand, and starting to stand in the heel position, without a check cord on........because I do things small now, that will help big later.[/align][/align]The way that you have done your program, sounds ok, but it changes ball fields, when it is close to a real hunting scenario. Thedog pointing on its own, you shooting, and then the real bird retrieve, that's where it can stay tight, or fall apart......the same with the whoa stuff.....its prolly one of the most abused words in dog language, I would rather here some one cuss, instead of saying whoa. And its not a safety issue, because if they can hear the word "WHOA", they can hear the word"HERE", but if the person would worry about teaching the dog to be steady, instead of intimidating it to stand still, having it standing on a 2X6, or barrel, is the dog ever gonna point on that stuff? If it is, its prolly pointing a rabbit. But people use the word to stop the dog from bumping the bird, so they are pointing, and not the dog. Bill West used to say, " a 4 inch piece of duct tape, is the best dog training tool around".....it covers that mouth pretty well.People dont care about the dog and bird work, they want a bragging tool. I hear people say "man, my dog will stop on a dime" whoa broke to beat the band" I ask....will he point? Usually......ummmmm,.....no, or not very well. So how was that time wasted, benefited the dogs work?[/align][/align]Here is one to put back in the back of your head when working a dog.[/align]"What am I doing to day in this work out, that will benefit me on the next one......with what I do today, will it help me and my dog work together as a team, will it help my dog learn what I would like in his work, if he isn't understanding this workout, what should I change, my timing, moving forward to fast, why or what am I doing, that's not being understood by the dog?"[/align][/align]Older dogs can be taught, sometimes easier, an sometimes harder.......every dog is different, ya dont know, until you startyour program, and seehow it works. Then figure out what is needed. Thanks Jonesy[/align]