I shoot 460 No Excuses-503 out of my wichester apex in a 1'' group at 80yds. Also shoot 504 460s out of a knight disc that will shoot 2'' at 100yds. both guns I shoot with 80grns of t7 fff. I shot 2 deer with the apex and these bullet and they preformed well. I dont use a wad or shot card but am going to try them this spring when I can get back to the range. Kerry