Thanks for all the replies on the cedar arrows post and the Black Widow post. I ended up with a Kota custom made recurve. Tim Finley of Oberon, ND, makes them. Found them at the SD bowhunters convention this past weekend. He had several recurves, one piece and take down, and several long bows. He was real nice an helpful, he let me shoot the bows. Mine is a one piece, called a Kill Um Recurve, 60 inches, 65# at 28. Coco Bolo riser and black locust limbs. Flemish twist string that his wife makes. The bow shoots really nice, very quiet and no hand shock. He had tuned the bow before the show with Rougue River arrows so I just ordered a dozen from them in the same spine. Made that part of it really easy. Now I can hardley wait for my arrows to get here!! I shot it saturday and sunday with my carbon arrows but they are too short and I don' t want to get in the habit of short drawing the bow so now I' m going to have to wait until the arrows come. Two weeks Have any of you guys heard of these bows? The price was very reasonable. Paid less than I was going to have to pay for a used Widow, and this one is really hand made.