I have two maybe even three that most will never see upclose orkill with a bow in my home state... firsta mid160 class 6x6 he right on the borderline of a lifetimer, my 171 inch gross6x6 (4x4 main frame) is a lifer imo..and a 184 inch gross(8x8) 5x5 main frame is most definately.. No complaints or regets the rest of my life..