UC: No, I haven't tried an overwad. I will try that and the 10 grains of oatmeal trick too this year. I will check out Track of the wolf. Just hard to believe that they would make that much difference when I get such bad groups with most conicals (4-8" groups at 25 yards). However, haven't tried them yet, so I will.

Also, I have a stainless barrel.

SHills: Are you shooting conicals or sabots?I can only shoot conicals where I hunt (Colorado). Also, I use an open sight (rear Williamspeep, front fiberoptic bead) because I can not usea scope in Colorado.