Sabotloader,I have a friend at the range that uses a windex combo with good results,I tried the WW first to stay away from the amonia ifI could It can cause rust easier than anything else that I am using of course so can spit,but it looks like it will boil down to what works. Up till this point I had no idea that what I cleaned with would change my group size more than a 100%; it seems like no matter how long I have been shooting that the learning prosess is never ending. Lee