You havta sit and laugh readin this mag mentality. Im wondering how the pioneers didnt starve to death because they didnt have a gun that would kill anything bigger than a squirrel over 25 yards after listening to some on here. The 45/70 even bounced off the elk over 40 yards.....mass starvation and epidemic in the old west due to hunger. Amazing...they wore em out with everything from blackpowder to 30-30's..and now a 308 is marginal?? Okkkkkkkkkkkk....