oldelkhunter; the older models I saw, one owned by my Grandfather and the other by my cousin were nice looking pump shotguns. The only problem I found with them is that both of them kicked like a mule. I don't know if it was the stock design or what. I remember at the time that my cousin's using 3" magnum lead for waterfowl (when it was legal) felt recoil was more than the Ithaca Mag 10 I was using with 3 1/2" lead loads.