Black MZ (again)
08-03-2016, 10:18 AM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
Black MZ (again)
I stopped by at Sportsman's Warehouse and got 3 cans of it on Monday on my way to Florida. Going to have my cousin get me 2 or 3 more cans. At that price I am going to get serious playing with it.
From what I understand this sub likes to be heavily compressed and a tight fitting sabot.
Someone enlighten me please.
From what I understand this sub likes to be heavily compressed and a tight fitting sabot.
Someone enlighten me please.
08-03-2016, 11:14 AM
#2
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
Yes it will do best with consistent seating pressure Clem.
I've been shooting JSG * Same powder * for a long time now and with great results.
Keep the bore clean, dump the powder down, push the projectile onto the powder and then with your upper body weight, just lean into the ramrod or range rod. You'll feel the powder compress quite a bit.
Just play around with different seating pressures until you find the one it likes. I even just use double thumb seating pressure at times when I am shooting a loose fitting patched ball combo.
I've never had clumping issues before either but if you do, you can just roll the can around to break it up.
I've been shooting JSG * Same powder * for a long time now and with great results.
Keep the bore clean, dump the powder down, push the projectile onto the powder and then with your upper body weight, just lean into the ramrod or range rod. You'll feel the powder compress quite a bit.
Just play around with different seating pressures until you find the one it likes. I even just use double thumb seating pressure at times when I am shooting a loose fitting patched ball combo.
I've never had clumping issues before either but if you do, you can just roll the can around to break it up.
08-04-2016, 03:19 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
For many years i've used the powders made by APP and the old company, Clean Shot. For best performance all those APP granular powders require a tight fitting ball/sabot seated hard on the powder.
The APP made powders are not all the same. They all contain potassium perchlorate and other ingredients; in varying quantities. Want more power from the powder, simply increase the quantity of potassium perchlorate.
i have not used JSG "Super Powder". It may be a re-name of JSG.
Few years ago a ballistician and myself did some testing of the APP powders. At that time we discovered that proper seating of the sabot/bullet on the powder is critical.
1. One hundred grains of plain old APP powder gave a muzzle velocity of around 1,500 fps when used with the .430 240 grain XTP bullet and the Traditions short black sabot.
2. One hundred grains of JSG powder gave a muzzle velocity of about 1,600 fps when used with the bullet and sabot listed above.
3. Goex 2F Pinnacle (made by APP) gave a velocity of around 1,700 fps when used with the same bullet and sabot.
4. Goex 3F Pinnacle gave a velocity of about 1,800 fps when used with the same bullet and sabot.
5. Black MZ gives a velocity of around 1,800 fps when used with the .430 240 grain XTP bullet and the Traditions short black sabot.
APP shot themselves in the foot when they stopped recommending seating the sabot hard on the powder.
The APP made powders are not all the same. They all contain potassium perchlorate and other ingredients; in varying quantities. Want more power from the powder, simply increase the quantity of potassium perchlorate.
i have not used JSG "Super Powder". It may be a re-name of JSG.
Few years ago a ballistician and myself did some testing of the APP powders. At that time we discovered that proper seating of the sabot/bullet on the powder is critical.
1. One hundred grains of plain old APP powder gave a muzzle velocity of around 1,500 fps when used with the .430 240 grain XTP bullet and the Traditions short black sabot.
2. One hundred grains of JSG powder gave a muzzle velocity of about 1,600 fps when used with the bullet and sabot listed above.
3. Goex 2F Pinnacle (made by APP) gave a velocity of around 1,700 fps when used with the same bullet and sabot.
4. Goex 3F Pinnacle gave a velocity of about 1,800 fps when used with the same bullet and sabot.
5. Black MZ gives a velocity of around 1,800 fps when used with the .430 240 grain XTP bullet and the Traditions short black sabot.
APP shot themselves in the foot when they stopped recommending seating the sabot hard on the powder.
Last edited by falcon; 08-04-2016 at 04:22 AM.
08-04-2016, 06:30 AM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
How reliable is this powder with percussion sidelocks?
Works great in both my New Englander guns. i use the Winchester magnum caps. The only misfires i ever had were because of nipples that did not allow the cap to properly seat. Turn the gun lock side down while loading the powder and then give stock a couple slaps with the palm.
08-04-2016, 09:27 AM
#6
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
The only gun I have issues with it in ( along with every powder that is not 3f) is a cabelas hawken with a crappy breech design.
Other than that, get a knight red hot nipple and its will be damn close to 100% reliable. I've only had a couple misfires due to to much cleaning solution getting into the breech and stopping up the powder.
Other than that, get a knight red hot nipple and its will be damn close to 100% reliable. I've only had a couple misfires due to to much cleaning solution getting into the breech and stopping up the powder.
08-04-2016, 09:54 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Very interesting how opinions have changed.
This was posted on thehighroad a few years ago.
This was posted on thehighroad a few years ago.
frontiergander
November 22, 2011, 12:20 PM
Incorrect, it is American Pioneer powder and repackaged in a new bottle with a new label. Supposedly it goes through better screening for consistency. Its very slow and inconsistent however.
November 22, 2011, 12:20 PM
Incorrect, it is American Pioneer powder and repackaged in a new bottle with a new label. Supposedly it goes through better screening for consistency. Its very slow and inconsistent however.
frontiergander
November 22, 2011, 10:42 PM
American Super Powder is what it is.
November 22, 2011, 10:42 PM
American Super Powder is what it is.
frontiergander
November 23, 2011, 12:53 AM
You can lead a mule to water but ya can't make it drink!! go ask randy wakeman, as much as i dislike the dude, even he will tell you its rebadged american pioneer that gets slightly better quality control in granule size. BlackMZ was supposed to be Black Dot but once the Black mag plant blew up, they had to get someone to fill the cans with something. You don't think Hodgdon was going to fill their cans do you? American Pioneer needed something to help their bad name out. Alliant however did wrong with using this stuff.
November 23, 2011, 12:53 AM
You can lead a mule to water but ya can't make it drink!! go ask randy wakeman, as much as i dislike the dude, even he will tell you its rebadged american pioneer that gets slightly better quality control in granule size. BlackMZ was supposed to be Black Dot but once the Black mag plant blew up, they had to get someone to fill the cans with something. You don't think Hodgdon was going to fill their cans do you? American Pioneer needed something to help their bad name out. Alliant however did wrong with using this stuff.
frontiergander
November 23, 2011, 01:19 AM
Its granulated as a very bulky 2f. You can forget about using it in the Lyman brand traditional sidelocks, 2f American pioneer wont even work in mine and the black mz is even bulkier.
November 23, 2011, 01:19 AM
Its granulated as a very bulky 2f. You can forget about using it in the Lyman brand traditional sidelocks, 2f American pioneer wont even work in mine and the black mz is even bulkier.
frontiergander
December 11, 2011, 08:55 PM
Alliant used APP to fill the cans. Its nothing special to be honest. I think if you shot it over a chronograph you'd find out how bad it really is. That stuff will suck up moisture, especially in places like Michigan.
December 11, 2011, 08:55 PM
Alliant used APP to fill the cans. Its nothing special to be honest. I think if you shot it over a chronograph you'd find out how bad it really is. That stuff will suck up moisture, especially in places like Michigan.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 08-04-2016 at 09:59 AM.
08-04-2016, 10:14 AM
#8
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
thats back from 2011. I posted a lot of good stuff once I actually bought it and shot it. I went by word of the mouth which I found out to be a big mistake to do.
Cabelas Hawken is a horrible rifle. This one at least. The breech is poorly designed and stops up with anything in 2fg form.
This in fact was 36 shots at 75 yards with JSG SP. I surely don't look unhappy.
In fact, here's more good stuff I wrote when testing it over a chrony.
Okay guys, I got out today with my .58cal CVA Hawken and tried out the MPP over the chrony and used the "worst" powder possible right?
70 grains Volume Jim Shockey's Gold Super Powder
.020" patching cut at the muzzle
.570" round balls weighed 277 - 278.8 grains
CCI #11 percussion cap
Knight red hot #11 nipple
Chrony was set at 18 feet distance.
Cold clean bore shots:
1405
1416
Swabbed between shots, one patch, both sides with birchwood casey No77 muzzle magic
1431
1439
I'd say the seating pressure with the MPP is very consistent.
I also used the wood ramrod today and it felt fine. Just because not to jerk sideways and I feel everything will be safe to use.
Believe it or not, the jim shockeys gold shot more consistent velocity wise, than the AR15 and AK47 ammo my brother and nephew were shooting over the Chrony.
Cabelas Hawken is a horrible rifle. This one at least. The breech is poorly designed and stops up with anything in 2fg form.
This in fact was 36 shots at 75 yards with JSG SP. I surely don't look unhappy.
In fact, here's more good stuff I wrote when testing it over a chrony.
Okay guys, I got out today with my .58cal CVA Hawken and tried out the MPP over the chrony and used the "worst" powder possible right?
70 grains Volume Jim Shockey's Gold Super Powder
.020" patching cut at the muzzle
.570" round balls weighed 277 - 278.8 grains
CCI #11 percussion cap
Knight red hot #11 nipple
Chrony was set at 18 feet distance.
Cold clean bore shots:
1405
1416
Swabbed between shots, one patch, both sides with birchwood casey No77 muzzle magic
1431
1439
I'd say the seating pressure with the MPP is very consistent.
I also used the wood ramrod today and it felt fine. Just because not to jerk sideways and I feel everything will be safe to use.
Believe it or not, the jim shockeys gold shot more consistent velocity wise, than the AR15 and AK47 ammo my brother and nephew were shooting over the Chrony.
Last edited by MountainDevil54; 08-04-2016 at 10:18 AM.
08-04-2016, 10:26 AM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Bronco, just ask Carlos. He posted a review years ago with chrono data and targets on the "other" forum.
I would be far more inclined to take his word about its quality. Just like all APP made powders it does appear to ignite very easily. Alliant does not list the ignition temps for it in the MSDS.
If i had a percussion rifle i would surely give it a try if you want something cleaner than real bp.
I would be far more inclined to take his word about its quality. Just like all APP made powders it does appear to ignite very easily. Alliant does not list the ignition temps for it in the MSDS.
If i had a percussion rifle i would surely give it a try if you want something cleaner than real bp.