Food Plots????
03-06-2004, 05:18 AM
#21
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western MO
Posts: 321
RE: Food Plots????
Well said....
I guess we are subject to marketing ploys in many ways...put a deer on the bag, double the price and you now have ladino clover for deer...or take a cowpea...imply its an exotic cowpea...and wowzers look at the antlers.
Deer are selective feeders who are equally dependent on brouse as they are on legumes or grasses, or forbs.
In any given year, Red clover will perform differently than ladino or alfalfa or lespedeza...thus its best to have diversity in what you plant.
Not all red clovers are the same...but be careful not to fall for some claim of protein levels or such garbage. The nutrient level in that plant is different based on the time the sample was cut, is it dry matter or wet...stage of growth...pre bud, bud, pre bloom bloom post bloom...Boys....that is why cattle producers use supplements like soybean meal....we need to add a known protein source because forages are not always the same.
Soil type and fertility can dramatically alter the nutrient content of a forage as well. In fact if you do your lime correctly and fertilize well and have good soil and all is well and right...your yield in tons per acre will increase but your nutrient PERCENTAGES will drop....so...If I were a crafty marketing guy...Id always take my sample in a stressed plant!!
This debate can rage on...but this is indeed a market where the buyer should beware.
I guess we are subject to marketing ploys in many ways...put a deer on the bag, double the price and you now have ladino clover for deer...or take a cowpea...imply its an exotic cowpea...and wowzers look at the antlers.
Deer are selective feeders who are equally dependent on brouse as they are on legumes or grasses, or forbs.
In any given year, Red clover will perform differently than ladino or alfalfa or lespedeza...thus its best to have diversity in what you plant.
Not all red clovers are the same...but be careful not to fall for some claim of protein levels or such garbage. The nutrient level in that plant is different based on the time the sample was cut, is it dry matter or wet...stage of growth...pre bud, bud, pre bloom bloom post bloom...Boys....that is why cattle producers use supplements like soybean meal....we need to add a known protein source because forages are not always the same.
Soil type and fertility can dramatically alter the nutrient content of a forage as well. In fact if you do your lime correctly and fertilize well and have good soil and all is well and right...your yield in tons per acre will increase but your nutrient PERCENTAGES will drop....so...If I were a crafty marketing guy...Id always take my sample in a stressed plant!!
This debate can rage on...but this is indeed a market where the buyer should beware.
03-06-2004, 05:34 AM
#22
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western MO
Posts: 321
RE: Food Plots????
Lunchbucket....I will take you to task, in a friendly manner...
First....to state that farmers see deer as a pest is absolutely untrue. I know I enjoy seeing deer and have always managed the farming operation in ways that benefit our deer, quail, rabbits, turkey etc.
30 years ago we had no turkeys to speak of and the rare season was one when we had a success rate on deer...I can recall when we had no season at all on deer or we had a season on a county by county basis. So when you toss out statements like yours, you may want to consider that farmers and ranchers are the source of feeding and sheltering the deer you hunt the other 50 weeks of the year and we are as active or moreso in maintaining and developing habitat as anyone.
Second... you have drawn a correlation...ie....two unconnected events brought together. More trophy deer kill and the marketing of food plot products. To say one created the other is the equivelent to me stating that Because I like red caps and I killed a big deer, all guys who want to kill a big deer should wear red caps. There are a million things that contribute to trophy deer...Age of the deer primary...genetics...primary.....You can bet your last dime that nutrition...especially in the midwest or SE where we have corn, wheat, alfalfa, and soybeans growing will not have much added nutrition because some poor slob planted a 1/2 acre SuperDuper rackMaker Clover plot. I will allow that perhaps a food plot that is ripe and ready at deer season will attract deer...but be honest, its not the reason the deer are big.
The Iowa folks had the deer before they put out a plot...they may not have seen them as often...and when I kill a World record, you can sure bet....the best product in my food plot will be the one that pays me the most for the endorsement....
Re Cattle grazing....Id suggest that you maintain your job in a non cattle raising field. Non selective grazers...my word. That is patently untrue.
I did enjoy your comment about being limited to buckwheat......anyone who has ever planted buckwheat as a green manure crop can testify...you would have to stand guard 24 hours aday to keep deer out....Buckwheat will draw deer in like candy...but best I can see, there is no profit in buckwheat seed so none of the food plot companies have jumped on it yet.
First....to state that farmers see deer as a pest is absolutely untrue. I know I enjoy seeing deer and have always managed the farming operation in ways that benefit our deer, quail, rabbits, turkey etc.
30 years ago we had no turkeys to speak of and the rare season was one when we had a success rate on deer...I can recall when we had no season at all on deer or we had a season on a county by county basis. So when you toss out statements like yours, you may want to consider that farmers and ranchers are the source of feeding and sheltering the deer you hunt the other 50 weeks of the year and we are as active or moreso in maintaining and developing habitat as anyone.
Second... you have drawn a correlation...ie....two unconnected events brought together. More trophy deer kill and the marketing of food plot products. To say one created the other is the equivelent to me stating that Because I like red caps and I killed a big deer, all guys who want to kill a big deer should wear red caps. There are a million things that contribute to trophy deer...Age of the deer primary...genetics...primary.....You can bet your last dime that nutrition...especially in the midwest or SE where we have corn, wheat, alfalfa, and soybeans growing will not have much added nutrition because some poor slob planted a 1/2 acre SuperDuper rackMaker Clover plot. I will allow that perhaps a food plot that is ripe and ready at deer season will attract deer...but be honest, its not the reason the deer are big.
The Iowa folks had the deer before they put out a plot...they may not have seen them as often...and when I kill a World record, you can sure bet....the best product in my food plot will be the one that pays me the most for the endorsement....
Re Cattle grazing....Id suggest that you maintain your job in a non cattle raising field. Non selective grazers...my word. That is patently untrue.
I did enjoy your comment about being limited to buckwheat......anyone who has ever planted buckwheat as a green manure crop can testify...you would have to stand guard 24 hours aday to keep deer out....Buckwheat will draw deer in like candy...but best I can see, there is no profit in buckwheat seed so none of the food plot companies have jumped on it yet.
03-06-2004, 10:57 AM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Livonia Mi USA
Posts: 551
RE: Food Plots????
We stand by our statements. The new popularity of modern quality management of wildlife, with some exceptions especially in the south, came after the food plot thing especially due to the bovine TB event here in the State of Michigan. However nutrition mangement is almost inseparatable from quality wildlife management. Wildlife is managed to the nutrition available, nutrition is not managed to the wildlife available, it is added to. Manipulation of nutrient is the lease costly way to manage anything living thing. Lesser nutrition, lesser life, better nutrition better life... Culling is a method of manipulating nutrition by manageing life to nutrition available.
The abundance of wildlife and the nutrition available is to be managed, on a whole, to safely accomondate one another so as to allow the wildlife to reach it's genetic potential and to reduce crop damage/auto incidents.
As far as grazing of cattle, grazing is a filler, as it were. Alfalfa/ hay/grains are the mainstay otherwise livestock owners would just fertilize fields and not have haying/grain operations. A good beefing operation does not leave it's livestock in the field as the mainstay of it's nutrition... Vitamins/minerals, haying and so on by the livestock owner and the macro/micro nutrients are added to allow the stockyard beast to reach it's potential.
What I said was "Since" the targeted blend have came on line there have been more recorded trophy bucks taken... Indeed circumstantial evidence, but we believe evidence which could convict. Check the record books and the dates.
The farm industry overwhellemingly sees deer as a pest. In Michigan and other states block/specialty permits are given to reduce deer herds because of crop damage and auto/deer accidents. This in itself does not intimate a welcome guest...
Enough said. The QDM folks are also on the same page as we are, certainly there are some exceptions...
We wish anyone who disagrees the best and still offer to give/answer any assistance/questions to the best of our ability without strong arming our own products... We feel anymore conversation on this subject may been seen as argumenative and counterproductive to this site...
The abundance of wildlife and the nutrition available is to be managed, on a whole, to safely accomondate one another so as to allow the wildlife to reach it's genetic potential and to reduce crop damage/auto incidents.
As far as grazing of cattle, grazing is a filler, as it were. Alfalfa/ hay/grains are the mainstay otherwise livestock owners would just fertilize fields and not have haying/grain operations. A good beefing operation does not leave it's livestock in the field as the mainstay of it's nutrition... Vitamins/minerals, haying and so on by the livestock owner and the macro/micro nutrients are added to allow the stockyard beast to reach it's potential.
What I said was "Since" the targeted blend have came on line there have been more recorded trophy bucks taken... Indeed circumstantial evidence, but we believe evidence which could convict. Check the record books and the dates.
The farm industry overwhellemingly sees deer as a pest. In Michigan and other states block/specialty permits are given to reduce deer herds because of crop damage and auto/deer accidents. This in itself does not intimate a welcome guest...
Enough said. The QDM folks are also on the same page as we are, certainly there are some exceptions...
We wish anyone who disagrees the best and still offer to give/answer any assistance/questions to the best of our ability without strong arming our own products... We feel anymore conversation on this subject may been seen as argumenative and counterproductive to this site...
03-06-2004, 02:03 PM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: Food Plots????
"A good beefing operation does not leave it's livestock in the field as the mainstay of it's nutrition..."
you can't be serious. Good (smart) beef producers DO leave their cattle on pasture. There is nothing better for cows than fresh grass and they are made to graze. Not only is it the best feed, it is the easiest/cheapest to feed, therefore saves time and money, therefore more profitable. why would a farmer want to go out andmechanically harvest forages (time, money) when the best harvestor, the cow, can go out and harvest their own feed. Yes, they may put out some type of minerals, but that is usually it. The only reason that they are taken off pasture and put into a feed lot is to fatten them and get a desired product (marbling, etc.). And actually more producers are starting to finish cattle on grass and seem to be doing quite well (the meat is much healthier). in northern climes, we are forced to put up stored feed because of weather conditions. trust me, it we in NY coud graze year round - there would be very few (none?) that wouldn't do it.
you can't be serious. Good (smart) beef producers DO leave their cattle on pasture. There is nothing better for cows than fresh grass and they are made to graze. Not only is it the best feed, it is the easiest/cheapest to feed, therefore saves time and money, therefore more profitable. why would a farmer want to go out andmechanically harvest forages (time, money) when the best harvestor, the cow, can go out and harvest their own feed. Yes, they may put out some type of minerals, but that is usually it. The only reason that they are taken off pasture and put into a feed lot is to fatten them and get a desired product (marbling, etc.). And actually more producers are starting to finish cattle on grass and seem to be doing quite well (the meat is much healthier). in northern climes, we are forced to put up stored feed because of weather conditions. trust me, it we in NY coud graze year round - there would be very few (none?) that wouldn't do it.
03-07-2004, 05:36 AM
#25
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western MO
Posts: 321
RE: Food Plots????
"We feel anymore conversation on this subject may been seen as argumenative and counterproductive to this site"....
Lunch...Im not sure what you meant by this statement but this is a valuable dialog.
I am again a bit confused by what you are saying....The issue of bovine TB in Michigan? Bovine TB has been around forever. Cattle have had to be TB tested to show and to sell for years. How that relates to your point missed me.
We do not disagree that nutrition is a vital element in habitat and wildlife management. Where we do seperate is that in many cases a food plot does not need exotic seeds and hugely expensive mixes to accoplish the end result. And all this "data" about the nutrient level of the "special clovers" are very suspect and they never are done by an independent third party. Point being...publish the methodology of the research and a comparison to a common commercial clover, alfalfa or comparable food source with samples done at same time and throughout the growing season so people who do not understand forages have some good comparitive data.
The end result you refer to is one of two things usually...one is to be a food source, or the other is to be a deer attractant come hunting season. I wont debate the ethics of the latter. What I will challange is the idea that if one plants a one acre food plot in hopes of altering the nutrition of and health of the resident deer population, they need to look at the scope and scale of that effort.
Habitat health across the general crop producing areas of the country offer a buffet of naturally occuring and planted crops that are far and away above the populations needs. Bottom line is you can sell that line to some, but I am not buying that a few scattered food plots will alter the nutrition offered to the deer herd in any significant manner. It will however attract deer if the plot offers something they want and like at the time of year that you offer it.
Last...and I would offer this in a friendly manner. You clearly do not understand cattle production. I would avoid discussions on that one 'cause you are not helping make your deer/nutrition point when you launch into cattle discussions.
Lunch...Im not sure what you meant by this statement but this is a valuable dialog.
I am again a bit confused by what you are saying....The issue of bovine TB in Michigan? Bovine TB has been around forever. Cattle have had to be TB tested to show and to sell for years. How that relates to your point missed me.
We do not disagree that nutrition is a vital element in habitat and wildlife management. Where we do seperate is that in many cases a food plot does not need exotic seeds and hugely expensive mixes to accoplish the end result. And all this "data" about the nutrient level of the "special clovers" are very suspect and they never are done by an independent third party. Point being...publish the methodology of the research and a comparison to a common commercial clover, alfalfa or comparable food source with samples done at same time and throughout the growing season so people who do not understand forages have some good comparitive data.
The end result you refer to is one of two things usually...one is to be a food source, or the other is to be a deer attractant come hunting season. I wont debate the ethics of the latter. What I will challange is the idea that if one plants a one acre food plot in hopes of altering the nutrition of and health of the resident deer population, they need to look at the scope and scale of that effort.
Habitat health across the general crop producing areas of the country offer a buffet of naturally occuring and planted crops that are far and away above the populations needs. Bottom line is you can sell that line to some, but I am not buying that a few scattered food plots will alter the nutrition offered to the deer herd in any significant manner. It will however attract deer if the plot offers something they want and like at the time of year that you offer it.
Last...and I would offer this in a friendly manner. You clearly do not understand cattle production. I would avoid discussions on that one 'cause you are not helping make your deer/nutrition point when you launch into cattle discussions.
03-07-2004, 09:44 AM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Broussard Louisiana USA
Posts: 349
RE: Food Plots????
I want to thank everyone for their information. Sometimes debate opens the eyes of some of us that are trying to put in food plots.
My view on food plots on our particular lease is this. The club that I am in has never put in plots and are a long way from being able to afford to put in plots large enough to provide the deer population with enough protein to alter the antler growth of the bucks. If we planted every pipeline, powerline and opening on the lease, we would might be able to supply them enough to give the herd the option of using the protein that we supply. Problem is, like I mentioned earlier is the cost. Down the road we may be able to provide these kind of plots, but for now, it is up to each individual to plant a plot that he or she may gain something from during hunting season.
Before reading this post, I was planning on planting the new Extreme, due to the soil type and conditions that we have in my area. Now, I am looking at altering my plans.
I am personally pushing for planting as much as possible in the future.
For now, until the hunting club can supply the money to plant these large plots, I am interested in drawing deer to a plot...ie....more does in the area may attract bucks during the rut. In an earlier reply someone mentioned buckwheat.
What type of seeds would offer the candy affect that I would need to draw deer into my stand sites?
Thank you
My view on food plots on our particular lease is this. The club that I am in has never put in plots and are a long way from being able to afford to put in plots large enough to provide the deer population with enough protein to alter the antler growth of the bucks. If we planted every pipeline, powerline and opening on the lease, we would might be able to supply them enough to give the herd the option of using the protein that we supply. Problem is, like I mentioned earlier is the cost. Down the road we may be able to provide these kind of plots, but for now, it is up to each individual to plant a plot that he or she may gain something from during hunting season.
Before reading this post, I was planning on planting the new Extreme, due to the soil type and conditions that we have in my area. Now, I am looking at altering my plans.
I am personally pushing for planting as much as possible in the future.
For now, until the hunting club can supply the money to plant these large plots, I am interested in drawing deer to a plot...ie....more does in the area may attract bucks during the rut. In an earlier reply someone mentioned buckwheat.
What type of seeds would offer the candy affect that I would need to draw deer into my stand sites?
Thank you
03-07-2004, 06:32 PM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: Food Plots????
CLOVER, CLOVER, CLOVER (ladino, Alice, Jumbo)
rygrass is good but doen't seem to persist will nin norther climates
rates can very depending on the mix you use - for pastures we recommend 2-3# clover when mixed with grass (15# or so), but is using all or mostly clover you probably want to bump that some
rygrass is good but doen't seem to persist will nin norther climates
rates can very depending on the mix you use - for pastures we recommend 2-3# clover when mixed with grass (15# or so), but is using all or mostly clover you probably want to bump that some
03-07-2004, 07:01 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: Food Plots????
I am not going to say that.
This is what I know - clover is high in protein (25-30%) and deer do come to it and eat the heck out of it; and if it is the case that you are needing to save money, why would you wnat to plant something that only grows for 1 year??; that mean you have to buy seed every year and go through the hassle of planting it (time and $$); the clover, if managed well, will last many years
This is what I know - clover is high in protein (25-30%) and deer do come to it and eat the heck out of it; and if it is the case that you are needing to save money, why would you wnat to plant something that only grows for 1 year??; that mean you have to buy seed every year and go through the hassle of planting it (time and $$); the clover, if managed well, will last many years