qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

just a question for everyone, in your own opinions, do you personally feel, and no qoutes please, that through qdm, and more specifically, the planting of food plots, and baiting of deer, that we, as hunters, have lost our woodsmanship skills, and that if those that rely on these methods had to truly hunt, in big woods, that they would go home empty handed, or more importantly, settle on a deer that they may not have otherwise settled on, if they were sitting over a bait pile or food plot? in other words, can those people( done it myself) truly call themselves hunters, or shooters, or even shoppers?

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Vtbuckrulrss - It all depends on how you define " woodsmanship skill," so I have some questions back at you:

From your post, I am assuming that you do not feel it takes as much " skill" to hunt farmlands as it does big woods, It sounds like you are saying that you cannot be a " skilled" hunter unless you hunt big woods. Is that correct?

Also, it is not safe to assume that QDM is not going on in the " big woods," so in your opinion, is a QDM hunter hunting " big woods" more skilled than one that is hunting farmlands just because of the territory involved? Are you saying big woods are harder to hunt because they tend to have lower deer populations, or are you just saying that differences in deer behavior would make it impossible for someone hunting farmland animals to adjust to the big woods? Is the opposite true?

Is the ability to identify mature deer something QDM teaches people or is that something people tend to learn on their own? Is the ability to age deer a " woodsmanship skill?" Would being able to age deer on the hoof better enable a hunter to take the animal they intended to, rather than " settle?"

Is the ablility to identify problems in the deer herd and make management decisions based those observations considered a " woodsmanship skill" under your definition?

Is the ability to plant food plots, trees, or make other appropriate habitat modifications considered " woodsmanship" under your definition?

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

hold on sling, hold on, lol, i will try to answer ya:

1) hunting farmlands depends how you are hunting them, my beef is sitting over a food plot or bait and considering that hunting, it' s shooting, nothing else. wandering around, sitting on active trails stalking, whether this is in " big" woods or on farmald, this is still hunting.

2) a qdm hunter, in the woods, is a better hunter than one hunting farmlands because there are less deer than in an agricultural setting, thus it takes more skill just to get close enough, without spooking the deer, to identify what they are shooting at, if it is a four point or is it a six, etc. as someone who has hunted both farmland, small wood lots, and large woods, personally, i found the farmland much easier because of the amount of deer. a farmland hunter MAY have a difficult time adjusting, a woods hunter is more used to hunting a wider variety of terrain than a farmland hunter, imho.

3) i think woodsmanship skills would make a better qdmer, because of the methods involved to enable one to get close enough to decide if this is the one that one wishes to take. but, a big woods hunter( or small) will most likely see fewer deer, and thus will/may take a buck regardless of antler size simply because they probably will see fewer deer. aging deer is a learned skill.

4) identifying problems in the herd, as you are describing it, would relate to a localized problem, one to be brought to the dept. attention, and not take matters into ones own hands. this manner of vigilantism will just lead to short term solutions, long term problems. leave those decisions to those professionals being paid to do the job, they have the degree, not us.

5) any farmer can grow crops. those who grow the crops you mentioned are just becoming deer farmers, bringing in their harvest in the fall, just as any farmer does. no, clearly not woodsmanship. how hard is it to contact the local ag dept, pick up a magazine, do some ordering and planting. if you do any of that, you are a farmer, deer farmer that is.

when i say farm hunting, i am speaking of hunting over food plots specifically planted for deer, not over farm crops. also, am i alone thinking that the tv shows are helping to erode our skills, how many times do you see people still hunting the woods vs. hunting in or near food plots? if you were a young and upcoming hunter, don' t you think that you would believe food plot hunting is the only way to hunt?

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

*sigh*

Poor attempt to stir the pot, man.

1) QDM is supposed to be improving the deer herd by use of food plots, selective hunting, etc. Nowhere in there is ' shooting over food plots.' You might say it differently - hunting over food plots or bait helps erode hunting skills. By calling that QDM, you' re obviously just trying to pick a fight.

2) How else, exactly, are they supposed to keep ratings? Do you honestly think a stalking hunter trailed by his cameraman is going to score on enough big bucks to make a living off the videos? They supply what the public wants - video of hunters killing big bucks. Period. Youngsters learn from their elders, hopefully, and not Jackie Bushman.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

fl/ga, love your quote at the end, where can i read more of that guy? not trying to stir the pot, mostly just trying to compare i guess a woods hunter/ bush hunter/swamp hunter with a plot sitter. but yes, i like your way better on phrasing it, does hunting over plots or bait erode one' s skills. however, can a qdm plan be done without food and fertilizer? and why plant a food plot if you aren' t planning on hunting around and on it?
totally agree with point number two.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vt; are you saying that if I hunt the deer trails in bush at the back of my property that I' m a hunter but if I strategically locate a crop at the front of my property in relation to deer runs etc. and hunt near it that I' m a washout?

I don' t believe that a modern hunter will be judged on hunting skill alone. The same way waterfowl hunters get into nesting improvement or fishermen get into spawning bed improvement. Part of taking game should be helping to preserve it for the future. If that means Ducks Unlimited are duck farmers so be it.

Even if you compare some old hunters (plaid shirts, no camo, no scents, cigarette in the mouth) shooting deer what special skill do you attribute to them? More people hunt from tree stands now than ever. Why; because it' s successful. But; you put the stand near a food source or near main trails or at bottlenecks. It isn' t a random selection. If you' re talking about still hunting, it' s much more difficult but people don' t have the time to learn the technique but still want success. I hate driving. I would it as taking much less skill than any plot or wood hunter.

Dan O.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

There are plenty of people who plant food plots simply to improve the nutrition a deer gets in their herd. There are many other people who do not sit the plots, but hunt the trails to and from them. Actually, if you hunt just the food plot itself, you' re missing out on a heck of a lot of big bucks.

The quote is from The Old Man and the Boy by Robert Ruark. Awesome book, I completely recommend it. I' ve also read Horn of the Hunter by Ruark. The Old Man and the Boy is basically a story of growing up hunting and fishing, Horn of the Hunter is a story of an African safari. Both are either wholly or partially autobiographical.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

I cannot comment on the baiting issue - but would like to comment on the food plot section of your hypothetical.


Personally, I think you have a rather narrow concept of what constitutes a food plot, its use(s) and the methods employed in hunting in conjunction with one or several plots.


The 180 acres my small hunting group manages is old farm land that has not been active for some time. While maybe 75% of it is " wooded" - its a far cry from " the big woods" and never would be due to agricultural and timber management in the area. So our options are to let the remaining fields go to woods - or to keep the fields open. We' ve decided on the feild route - and actively plant/mow about 20 acres in different food types that benefit all wildlife on the " farm" .

OK - now you know my story in a nutshell. I personally have NEVER taken a deer on a food plot - I' ve hunted on them a few times no doubt - but have learned that the odds of actually harvesting a deer, especially a better than average one are better off the plots, - learn how the deer relate to the plots ,and capitalize on their weak spots away from the bedding and feed areas (not a whole lot different than hunting in the big woods). You seem to assume that have a food plot is like shopping for meat at the supermarket - I very much disagree.

Do Food plots take away from the hunting experience??? I' d say its quite the contrary - the more time and effort one puts in on the land, the more one appreciates the deer and the wildlife in general.

I think your point goes more towards " are food plots artificial" and I' d respond that, now your down to splitting hairs. For instance, Hunting farmland or rural property nearby farmed land - is probably what whitetail deer hunting IS in 75% of the country. Food plots are only an extension of current agriculture practice - and is actually more " normal" than the alternative in most areas.

On the chance that your concept of a food plot is some magic seed thrown down around a treestand, back in the woods someplace - I' d say that GENERALLY most of us are not interested in planting little " dessert" plots for to attract deer in hunting season. Food plots, planted as most of us do on this board, is a 365 day/year prospect - and an extension of the hunting experience. Its a way to involve family, friends, hunters and non-hunters alike.

I have no beef with you, you are entiled to your opinion. I simply cannot make the leap: Food plots :: loss of hunting skills as ?????? - I don' t get it.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuckrulrss -

one last point on the question you raised - " can a QDM plan be impemented in the Big Woods?" - Sure it can.

The cohesive element around QDM is that " all is relative" - and the real qdm concept - is a balanced deer herd -not food plots - Blah - Blah - Blah. It works in big woods, swamps, farm land, sand dunes, etc - but its all relative.

Food plots can " boost" the Carrying capicity - but only locally. At the very least - you want your property, or the property you hunt, to be even with the norm or better as far as carrying capacity goes -

Its not about hunting over food plots.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

VT,

Personally, I think you have some gross misunderstandings of what QDM is, and what is supported by the QDMA. You are obviously very negative towards QDM, and just trying to " stir the pot" . There are quite a few guys on this site that this will not work with. Many of us have been ardent QDM supporters for years, and understand the basics and beyond, and most likely will never change our minds, especially by any of the points you' ve tried to bring forth. Here is what you are missing:

QDM is, and only is....
1. Adequate buck age structure

2. Maintaining population levels at or below the carrying capacity of the habitat

3. Adequate sex ratios

That' s it, period.

The QDMA takes those 3 biologically proven principles of QDM, and adds a few social management aspects, including, education, youth involvement, habitat improvement, cooperation with local law enforcement and biologist, etc..

By talking about food plots, you are only covering one aspect that falls under " Maintaining population levels at or below the carrying capacity of the habitat" . And this aspect, food plots, habitat improvement, etc.., is still bound by maintaining population levels in balance with the habitat.

The 3 principles listed above are what QDM actually is, and what forms the biological, scientific base of the QDMA and it' s beliefs.

QDM can apply anywhere, because anywhere you go those 3 principles apply for the health of the herd.

Another thing you' ll find, as hunters become more involved in the management aspects, as well as education, they not only become better educated in white-tail biology and habitat, but better hunters. Mark Thomas, a national board member of the QDMA, told me last year that it is very important that hunters become better hunters. It' s all about involvement, as education and activities increase, so does the skill level of the hunter. The guys that are out there on their property maintaining food plots, setting tree stands, studying game movements, improving habitat based on deer usage on the property not only become better hunters, but know where their deer sleep, eat, give birth, hide, escape, and live every aspect of their yearly lives. Eduction=involvement=hunter knowledge=hunter skill.

I personally would not even put baiting-in MY AREA, anywhere in the same class. Virtually all baiters around here throw some bait out a week before the season, and sit for a few times during gun season. That' s it. No education, increase in knowledge, skill level, passion, desire, or anything. In fact, around here, the use of baiting by the majority of hunters, and the extreme reliance on baiting for the only commonly practiced hunting method, has seriously donwgraded the skill level of hunters enough that many hunters are getting discouraged and giving up hunting all together. But again, just like food plots isn' t QDM, neither is baiting, so to referance food ploting to baiting to QDM to lack of hunter skill, shows a gross misunderstanding of QDM, food plots, and baiting all together.

So to answer the question, not only is the assumption or thought that QDM equals lower skill levels in hunting incorrect and misquided, but QDM' s relation to food plots and baiting is greatly misunderstood.

I' ve been able to participate in PA' s gun season for the past 10 years. What a difference QDM has made in the big woods! From seeing 30 does and a spike a day in the mid 90' s, to seeing 5 or 6 bucks and 10-15 does a day now, all in the big woods of the Alleghany National forest. Our camp has been in existance for 30 years, with 170 bucks taken. All of the following have increased, over the past 5 year, due to increased doe permits: body weights by age class, rack size by age class, increased buck sightings, hunter success %, size of bucks harvested for total weight and antler size, and buck age harvested. Last year, with the restrictions, buck age class will improve even more. I personally shot the 6th buck I saw on opening day, at 10:00 in the morning. We shot 7 bucks for the 10 guys that stayed at least 2 days, with our 2nd largest buck ever taken, and 2 others in the top 10 out of 170.

So in a nutshell, in the big woods of PA, QDM has done the following:

Improved buck age structure

Lowered deer numbers to targeted carrying capacities

Improved sex ratios

Improved rack size, body weights, rutting activity, hunter success, buck sightings, and best of all....hunter enjoyment. All in the big woods!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Thanks Jeff, you said it very well. QDM has become very confused in the minds of a lot of people. Food Plots may or may not be a part of QDM. Selective harvest to achieve a management goal is a big part of QDM.

In many cases hunters object to the idea that they would be asked to harvest does...its a huge testosterone thing to kill a buck for many hunters and they just cannot deal with a doe as the harvest.

The false impressions that exist around QDM are endless. Ive seen and listened to guys just go ballistic when the subject comes up. They see the number of harvested deer dropping (why?, does are generally easier to kill than bucks), they somehow see this as an antler growth program....when in fact it would balance doe/buck ratios (increasing the number of bucks) and would balance age classes (increasing numbers of mature bucks), and increase available food sources especially in over populated areas..

In time, the goals of deer herd management will change to a quality approach from the current mindset of herd expansion that has been in place since the 50s. It will take time to educate hunters on the value and overcome the buck at any age is a good deer" mentality.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

tell you what guys, lets put a different spin on this before it gets too ugly, would you say that television shows, especially those which show hunting over bait or foodplots COULD/WILL lead to a decline in our skills as hunters, and the food sources i am talking about have absolutely nothing to do with qdm, just your gut feeling. as far as being educated in the aspects of what qdm is, and comprises, the issue has risen in vt, where i live. and because it has, i have taken it up as a pet peave of mine, and have become very well educated , if i say so myself, as to what it takes to do it right, from controlled doe harvesting, to buck management, to habitat management, i don' t think i have missed very much of it. i have a lot of materials, pro and con, including items from some of the top biologists around the country, and from qdma board members. personally, it isn' t for me, i don' t feel that it should be, in such as state as mine that already has a relatively low deer population, state mandated, as some are trying to get the state to do. but, at the same time, if someone wishes to have their own qdm program, on their own land, and can do it properly, than i say go for it, more power to you. i also feel that the deer management aspect should be left to the state biologists that are being paid to do it, most of us don' t have that kind of expertise to do it in such a way that we don' t do more harm than good. and currently, many of those in this state feel that we still need to have herd expansion, yet we also have a good ratio of 1adb to 3ad. could be better, could be worse. also, many people here feel that qdm is a testosterone thing, becuase when qdm is brought up, the uneducated think qdm=big racked bucks, and that there will be more bucks killed, where by definition, qdm actually is about a lot more than that, and as a sidebar, maybe, and there are studies to prove it, read it myself, cant locate it now, but MAYBE antler restrictions are doing more harm than good. like i said, i cant find it right now, but do remember the study being conducted in the southeast. and qdm, by definition, means that your overall buck harvest will decline, and has to. so anyhow, basically, all i am looking for is are we letting our skills go downhill, because of tv shows, amongst other things? and nope, not trying to stir the pot, or make enemies, you can' t learn if you don' t listen, and i am listening. by the way, my butt is a bit sore from the chunks you guys took out, lol.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

How about if you learn more about deer while sitting near a food source. I learned the hard way that you can see alot of deer before dark sitting on a field, not a food plot but an actual harvested field but you probably won' t kill a big buck unless you get up in the staging areas.




What if your " active trail" leads to a food source? Does it automatically make it not hunting. If sitting over a bait pile is just shooting somebody better let the deer on the land I hunt know so they' ll start showing up for me to shoot every time I go.
TJ

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Well said Brian.

VT, Like I said earlier...I' m not a biologist, and don' t claim to know it all by any means. I CHOOSE to support QDM, frankly because I think it is great overall for the deer. Like Jeff said:

Now, I think where the dilemma " mostly" comes in to this is....some folks associate QDM directly with BIG Antlers. Yes, deer can have big antlers under QDM plans, but that is not the goal of a TRUE QDM plan. What Jeff said is exactly right. Personally, I enjoy the aspects of QDM. I like having the opportunity to observe and " select" the deer I want to harvest. It gives me a good feeling knowing I just let a young basket rack 8pt walk, and shot a doe instead. I know that I' m helping the overall herd in the ways listed above. Am I hoping that the 8pt will live and grow big antlers....YOU BET! But that is a bonus if it happens, and the overall goals are more important. Honestly, I want to kill BIG, MATURE bucks. I' ve shot so many small, immature bucks over the years....I just didn' t want to do it anymore. We implemented a self imposed QDM plan that basically involves shooting many, many does each year...and letting almost all the bucks walk. I' ve seen some dramatic changes on our property over the last 5 years.
The # of does, although still high...is coming down.
The # of bucks over 1.5 has gone way up.
The # of mature bucks seen, has gone way up.
The avg overall health of the herd has gotten better, as seen by increases in body weights.
We also put out mineral supplement thoughout property at various locations. We do have food plots (corn, alfalfa, hayfields) but they are not planted by us, and are not specifically for the deer. (cattle farm). The deer feed in these regularly during the year, however by the time hunting season rolls around...all the good stuff is gone. The farmer doesn' t leave much of anything for the deer(which is a bummer). I have hunted farmland for over 20 yrs, and have yet to harvest a deer coming to a " food plot" . I guess I could, but I just don' t focus my hunting in those areas. I enjoy hunting the woods. I don' t consider a food plot the same as a bait pile though. Food plots give all the wildlife year round food, and they are usually decent sized plots as a rule...not concentrated to one specific spot such as a pickup truck load of corn. Personally I don' t care for baiting, and will not hunt over a pile of bait period. Some folks like to, and if it' s legal and they want to...go for it.

Like Brian said, hunting shows, and what the avg joe goes through in the real world are usually very different. I personally think QDM helps to make one a better hunter all around. Understanding what real QDM is all about, is a good thing for hunting and the wildlife.

Maybe I' m wrong, but it seems that your are against QDM very much. What is the reason? You seem knowledgeable enough... Just curious.

It seems to me that the folks that are adamently against QDM, and who say it' s all about antler size....in reality, they are the one' s that are concerned with antlers. They want to be able to shoot " ANY" buck with antlers...and don' t support anything that has to do with antler restrictions. They really contradict themselves, because by saying they don' t want any rules that would lead them to take a doe instead of a buck....this shows THEY are the ones truly concerned about antlers. Not saying this is you, but many folks against QDM seem to think this way.

By the way...if you want to come down (to the impossibly overpopulated va);) and swap some of your concrete expertise for some hunting...let me know [:-]

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Ive been hunting on feeders and baited areas for 20+ years. Does this take away from my hunting skills. I would say no. If you want to test your hunting skills, book bow hunt for a Nalgai on the King Ranch. That will test your skills.

Be it QDMA, Ducks Unlimited, NWTF, etc....We all have a common goal to protect, conserve, and learn more about the wildlife we all love.

We need to improve the habitat for the entire biota.

PS
Isn' t it ironic how perfectly good wild life habitat can be desimated by big bussiness with million dollar condos and then they have the nerve to call it " Running Deer Estates" or maybe " Whispering Pines Village" .

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuck, in your first post you question QDM and its purpose and make references to baiting and food plots and hunters loosing their true hunting abilities. Then when questioned about it you changed a bit and said you knew all albout QDM and its purpose. Something just don' t fit. It sounds more like a " if you don' t hunt the way I do, you don' t know how to hunt, or your are an unethical hunter" type of post. The legal method of hunting doesn' t have anything to do with Quality Deer Management. If you don' t want to hunt with QDM as a goal, go ahead.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuckrulrss - One comment about deer management at the local level. While it is true that the state natural resouces department establishes a hunting framework to follow (and they should), individual hunters are ultimately the ones managing the herd based on what they choose to harvest (with QDM or without).

In my home state, the DNR is trying to lower the doe population by making doe tags available. They have not been totally sucessful at this because many hunters refuse to shoot does. Even if every person in the state did want to follow the state' s mangagement plan, how would each person know how many bucks or does they were suppose to shoot? I know it is all suppose to all wash out in the end, but it doesn' t (especially on the local level). Nobody is organized and they tend to go out and shoot the first buck they see, just like they always have done. Few does are harvested and that situation repeats itself year after year. At least with QDM there is some sort of organized movement toward a common goal.

Every time you pull the trigger on an animal, you are making a local management decision whether you want to or not. If you took an animal last year, did you take that animal for a reason or did you just take it because it felt right? If you are not looking at the local herd and you are not coordinating efforts with your neighbors (or the state), how do you know you made the correct management decision? Wouldn' t a harvest decision based on local observations and a coordinated effort be better than a guess? The nice about QDM is that animals are harvested for a purpose rather than a whim or a need for antlers.

My main point is that hunters are managing locally with or without QDM. There are plenty of buck-only managers out there that are causing more problems than any QDM program. If the 3 basic principles of QDM are followed, there should not be any issues. If the 3 principles are not followed, it is not QDM.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

guess i have to check back in more often got buried with q and a' s) well, i hope a' s anyway)
first brian, you are very well spoken, like the way you stated everything, and made it easy to understand your point of view. i now have a better view of foodplots and there plan.
wv, when we look at the definitons of qdm, other than perhaps the adequate age structure, would it be fair to say that aren' t we already following the last two rules under( or should under) our states management rules? i know mine strives to keep the animals within carying capacity of the land, and try to get the sex ratios under control at the same time. and with our deer limits here, yep, i' ll take the first buck that comes along. our success rate is roughly 10% for rifle hunters(bucks only), and a bit higher for bow(either sex) and muzzleloader( buck only, try to draw a doe tag here!) me, i am in it for the meat, antlers are nice, but doe taste the same. with such odds against me, that is why i take what i can get. last year i was fortunate to get one of each. for us here, it is a race against time and lack of deer. already tossed your idea of concrete HER way, got a bad look, lol, but what are you looking at doing, and where?
s.texa, may be up for something on the king, if i had the money, but have seen plenty of shows from there and seen the bucks. your p.s. says a lot, and i agree with you on it.
timber, i was just asking if anyone felt that hunting in those situtaions had /will lead to erosion of hunting skills. nope, don' t wish to hunt with qdm in mind, because i do not see it as a necessary tool for my area. in other states, definetely a need for it. we are more concerned with seeing deer, than having the luxury to pick and choose, if we wish to put meat in the freezer. you guys should feel good where you can do some choosing.
sling, what do you mean how would you know who shot what? if the state has the capacity and resources, they should have check stations, and " x" amount of tags available. we also had great resistance when doe seasons were first conducted, but since then, they have become mostlt excepted. but, it has taken i think 20 years to get there. took the deer for the meat, sling, didn' t care what kind of headgear they sported( was a nice little six, though, and a good doe.)

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuckrulrss - What I am getting at is that you chose to take one deer of each sex. I don' t know if that was a conscious decision or if that just represented the opportunities that presented itself at the time. The state did not tell you to take a deer of each sex, that is a decision you made on your own. That decision is affecting the herd on a local level. The question is, did you make the correct harvest decision and are your local hunters making good decisions?

It all depends on what your goals are. Most hunters fit into the category, bucks-only, numbers, QDM, trophy bucks only, or trophy management. Based on your harvest choices and what you have said above, I am assuming you are managing for numbers.

If you are managing for maximum deer numbers that is fine, but it is just another style of management with both positive and negative aspects.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

sling, lol the only thing that i was managing for was my freezer, the buck came in during the buck season, the doe during the optional ( for the first one) archery season later on. i would have taken a buck had the chance arisen. brian, i agree with you about qdm sitting better in areas with a larger deer population. we are managed for a herd of 140-15000, with an annual goal, total seasons combined of somewhere around 18-20000. but, i should mention that according to state statistics, during our file season, where only one buck is allowed, of the roughly 9000 bucks shot, 47-49% of these deer were mature deer. we have a pre hunt ratio of 1-3 mature deer. plus, we are within our carrying capacity, so, i guess the state is doing a pretty fair job of managing out herd. can' t understand how/ why some people here think we need improvement through a qdm plan, these are acceptable goals under most qdm plans.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Food plots in my opinion are designed to hopefully enhance the overall health of your deer herd. Just because you plant some clover doesn' t mean they come running in saying shoot me shoot me. That is far from the case, in my experience. You may see more deer but without the foodplot I would just find a stand of oaks, and still do, that are dropping acorns where the deer are feeding. So if going out in the woods to find some trees that have acorns and hunting there makes me a better hunter than hunting over a food plot or a trail to a food plot so be it. I don' t see how it is any different. MOST of the time the key to harvesting a nice animal is and always will be the rut. Trust me they don' t run over you just because you throw out some clover seed.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuckrulrss - LOL - Nobody on this thread said that QDM is the only legitimate form of deer management. Not sure if that is just a general statement you are making or what. I can sympathize with you a little bit if you feel bombarded with QDM info, but you did choose to post in the QDM forum didn' t you? What did you expect to hear?

Thanks Brian - Now I understand why vtbuckrulrss feels his state has so much control over the deer harvest on a local level. It sounds like his state is in herd building mode right now, so the lack of doe tags is probably forcing hunters to fall into the state' s management scheme (herd building). Depending on the growth potential of the herd, once they start approaching K it will be interesting to see if the hunters can convert from a bucks-only type of management to a numbers management scheme. Once the doe harvest becomes an important factor, the personal preferences/opinions of hunters can start to override the goals set by the state on the local level.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

hey sling, just wanted to clarify my last statement, when i said" here" i meant in vt, not on the board, i read it again after you brought it up and can see how you took it, my fault. i don' t know if we are in a rebuilding phase, we used to have a much larger herd in the 60' s and 70' s( long before i could hunt), but i think w experienced a few crashes( herd was being managed by the lawmakers, not the f&w dept.), plus they were eating themselves out of house and home. i think the dept determined that what we have for an overall number is about what the habitat, and humans, can take. by the way, lol, i still have a pretty good size chunk missing from the bite you took, too!!!!! not mad at anyone, you are right, i asked for opinions, and i got them. if i couldn' t take it, i would have never written back.


you can' t learn if ya don' t listen.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vt; when you talk about losing skills what skills are you refering to? Don' t take it that I' m trying to throw you back into the bullpit, but I believe that the hunting skills of the modern bowhunter are superior to the rifle hunter of say 50 years ago. Skills are hard to define, are they knowledge, common sense, or that sixth sense that some people have when it comes to locating deer?

How would you rate the different hunting forms for skill:
- hunting from a stand in a game farm (rifle)
- driving with dogs
- driving with people
- baiting
- tree or ground stand hunting in a natural area (rifle)
- tree or ground stand hunting in a natural area (bow)
- stalking/still hunting

I couldn' t even conceive how poor my success rate would be stalking in a natural area with a bow, but it might end up being the most satisfying. Take away cover scents and camo and the main skills are your movement and your location while keeping the sun to your back and the wind in your face.

Dan O.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuckrulrss - I was not really trying to take a piece of you. I could not, for the life of me, figure out why we were not on the same page. After looking at Brian' s post, it finally clicked. I am a little slow, but I get there eventually.

Over the past few weeks, this board has covered deer management in Michigan, Canada, and now Vermont. Each with its own unique conditions. Hopefully the board will continue this North American tour. Each stop helps complete the total management picture.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Great quote Brian. You always know exactly how to say what us dummies can' t figure out how to type...even though we may be thinking along the same lines.

VT, like sling...I now understand better where you are coming from. I honestly don' t know how I' d feel if I lived in an area that had the population and laws like you have. ??? I would probably have different feelings than I do now. I remember many years ago, hunting where I do now....it was alot different. The pop was alot less, and taking a buck was a big deal. But over the past 20 years...things have changed big time with the population. Coming from a state where I can shoot over 100 does if I want, it' s hard for me to comprehend having to " try" to get a doe tag [:o]

I applaud your efforts of digging in to QDM, and trying to figure out what it' s all about. Most don' t understand really, and don' t make the effort. They just immediately assume it' s all about " antlers" .

And by the way...I was serious about the concrete work...send me a pm.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

geesum, dan, i thought you were one of the few that i was getting along with, but ok,since i am mostly healed up, i' ll give it a shot, as long as everyone realizes we are all entitled to our own opinions, we don' t have to agree. i guess forms first, on a scale of 1 being low, 5 high,
from a stand on a game farm, 2
drivening w/dogs( got caught up in one once, not as easy as one would think. deer way in front of dogs, dogs not even close to people, saw as an outsider as they went by me) 3
driving w/people 4
baiting 2
tree stand hunting rifle 4
tree stand bow 5
stalking/still hunting 5 depending upon deer population, the more deer, the lower number i would rate it.

while bow hunt, i don' t know if i would say that we are better bow hunters than 50 years ago, simply because we have so much gear available to attach to our bows, and with the improvement of modern bows, the actual shooting end of it is becoming easier and easier, almost to the point and shoot phase. and with the invention of heat seeking deer finders, we are losing one skill of deer hunting, tracking a wounded animal. judging by post in different areas of the forum, it sounds like many people out there who shoot at deer have the mentality that if it isn' t dropping right off, shoot more lead, and if it still runs, either they are too lazy, or not good enough to track a wounded animal and don' t care. i guess on your skills section, yes, i would say that all of what you mentioned are things to be taken into consideration as being important to me. so many people today seem like they would rather put some food outside the camp window, play cards, shoot a deer over it, and be happy to have done so for the bragging rights. seen this happening in my own family to a group of guys that 15 years ago i would have put their skills up against anyone, if there was a deer in the woods, they knew where it was, what it did, almost even when it went to the bathroom it seemed like, they were that devoted to stalking, tracking, etc. but with age( mostly 40' s+) came ease and laziness. they don' t " hunt" anymore, and because of this, while i visit during the season, rarely do i hunt with them, all they want to do is put on drives or sit on a pile of apple pumice, or talk about hunting( boy, someone should really go walk up by the spring and see what is up there) something else to think about, considering the tech. that we have available, with cover scents, sights, single cams, double cams, how would you rate todays bow hunter of one just 25, 30 years ago? i would say that we are not nearly as good as those 30 years ago, they simply had less to work with to be successful.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

QDM is:

1. Adequate buck age structure

2. Populations maintained at or below the carrying capacity

3. Adequate sex ratios

EVERY deer herd (and many others animals, fish, birds, etc..) need those 3 aspects to produce optimum health. Some areas have populations way below carrying capacity, and can be raised, some areas have great sex ratios, and some areas already have adequate buck age structure. But, where a QDM plan fits in, in an otherwise decent herd structure, is to insure the long term maintainance of that decent herd structure. Those 3 principles are the model, and a plan for any area just needs to be maintained, or improved, to insure the successful implementation of those 3 principles.

It sounds like VT' s area may already have most of the pieces of the puzzle in place to satisfy the necessaties of a QDM plan, but that doesn' t mean a QDM plan is not appropriate. On the contrary, a QDM plan is needed to insure the quality of VT' s area is maintained at it' s current high level. A QDM plan will set concrete numbers of maintainance to insure a quality herd, and develop a plan that can be constantly referred to cut off any potential problems of herd dynamics that may arrise.

Unfortunately, QDM is commonly misunderstood and put into the same management plan as trophy management or unlimited doe harvest, and this is simply untrue. Just because a QDM plan is being developed for a certain area, it does not imply that anything at all even needs to be done, it just means that the 3 proven principles of QDM will be followed, and maintained.

It' s really pretty simple. Follow the 3 principles and you have a QDM plan. In most areas of the country changes need to be made, but not all areas need the same changes, and not all areas needed to even be changed, but that doesn' t mean QDM is good for one area, and not for another.

QDM applies everywhere it is used......but that doesn' t mean all of your does will be shot, or that you don' t have decent age structure or decent sex ratios already.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

vtbuckrulrss,

Being from Vermont also, I have to respectfully disagree with you on several items.

First, the 2002 VT Deer Harvest Report states that of the bucks harvested in VT during the rifle season, 60% were 1.5 year old deer. Can' t remember what the % was for 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks were, but 4.5 year old and older was less than 5%. They don' t have a chance to mature and grow up. I have two shed found behind my house by my father-in-law in 1958 and 1959. They are of a 160 class buck. The genetics are here, it' s age that our bucks are lacking.

Secondly, the state claims that we have between 140,000 and 150,000 deer - as you stated. I don' t buy it. I think our current population is much less. They also claim the our buck to doe ratio is 1:3. I have an even hard time believing that. I' m sure in some places it could be, but not the state as a whole. And especially not in central Vermont.

Next is the whole QDM issue. I am all for it and have begun working towards it on my property. I am the Habitat Chairman of our local NWTF Chapter. Habitat is a hugh issue. The deer yards need some serious help in restoring the browse. We really need to put some money into the yards for the future of our sport. I personally have begun to put in food plots on my property. From liming the hay fields for better production, to planting clover, corn, buckwheat, and winter rye, to planting crab apple trees which hold their fruit throughout the winter months, berry producing shrubs, and selective timber harvesting for regeneration of the forest. Every little bit helps. If the deer can make it through the critical Dec - March time period with a little extra nutrition, they can begin the spring healthier. This means larger and stronger fawns. More milk produced for the fawns from a fat healthy doe. Larger bodied bucks, and yes larger antlers.

It hard to let a spike horn walk (but I do anyway), when it gets whacked after it leaves my small 95 acre track of land. I also believe the state of Vermont should limit the buck take to 1 per year instead of the potential of 3 bucks. This is part of the reason when NH and Maine have such nice deer taken each year.

Ok, so I am a " meat hunter" . By all means shoot a doe during archery season. Heck, shoot two during archery. Take one more during muzzleloading if you draw an antlerless permit.

As was stated earlier, food plots are more than a place to kill a deer. It turns into being a passion and an obsession. You try to give back to the wildlife you love to watch and pursue. They are not only a place to hunt, but a place to observe, and a place to bring children so they can experience the same thrills we do when we see a deer or turkey or moose or bear.

Good luck this year and I hope we will enjoy hunting in the Green Mountains for many years to come . . . Rob

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Rob,

Enjoyed your prospective of the great state of Vermont. It' s always interesting to hear about the variety of management tactic that can be employed around the country to produce a solid QDM plan, but it seems your area and mine, although pretty far apart, seem very similar.

Good Luck with all you projects, and " fun work" . It' s very rewarding isn' t it!;)

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

hey rob, we are practically neighbors, i am writing this from barre. i am right now looking at two things to answer some points that you brought up. one is the deer harvest report that you have, and the other was sent to me by john buck, for those reading this, john is the head deer biologist here. this is a paper regarding qdm and vt. in the second report, i do not have the author, so i don' t know if it was john who did this or not, it talks about the age class here. it states that " harvest and age data indicate that about 50% of vermont' s buck' s are 2.5 years and older." first page of the 2002 report states the age distribution of examined bucks during 2002 were 53% yearlings, 29% 2.5 year olds, 15& 3.5 year olds, and 3% 4.5 years or greater. so when i said that mature bucks, i guessed accounted for 47ish percent of the harvest, i was close. having for a few years in this area, having moved from waterville, and done a lot of hunting in the walden, hardwick, stannard area, i think the amount of deer, and ratio, is correct. what many people forget is that when a biologist states the ratio to be 1-3, they are talking about adult deer, those that are 1.5 years old, and older. they do factor in the yearling doe population, which is what we see, but of course that would be a different number, if we did that, yearling bucks would need to be added in too, which should still give us mathematically about the same ratio. i can' t say that i have ever had a problem seeing deer here during hunting season, maybe just not as many bucks as i would like to see. as for the central vermont numbers, check the stats on the reportplainfield had a nice 1.99 bucks per square mile reported, with a total of 3.69 per square mile killed, montpelier4.00 and 18.40, amongst the highest in the state, e.montpelier, 2.84 and 5.59, etc. our area has been producing some nice numbers of deer, and large ones, too. as for deer yards, i can' t say much, but from what i have seen, since my folks live in a deer yard, and the surrounding area roads, rt 15, 109 and the hogback in johnson are deer yarding areas, i have yet to hear of anyone finding very many dead deer from starvation in there, the only dead ones seen , it seems like, come from vehicle collisions. if you wish to enact qdm on your property, go for it, many of the guys here have told me that it is a rewarding experience, but if you do decide to do it, and try to help push it through in certain areas, i have to say two things, one, if you truly want qdm, realize that limiting us to one buck a year will not work towards this goal, and two, that i detest, makes me want to puke, the thought of any state implemented qdm regulations, and i have enough studies on it that i will fight this all the way, it isn' t needed or wanted in this state, as we are well within acceptable limits as to age, sex, and habitat structures. we do not have a population large enough that we should worry about it. i too hope to enjoy hunting here for many years, without any state mandated regulations other than what we have. i, too am a meat hunter, like you, and that is what i am more concerned with, not what grows out of an animals head. and, after attending the montpelier meeting this spring,( if you were there, i was the one who asked for the recipe about cooking horns, still waiting for the recipe from someone) got the feeling that many, not all, of the people attending, who were for qdm, flat out are too damn lazy to go back in the woods, and find the quality deer they are looking for. it' s called hunting for a reason, they need to get out in the woods more to get what they want. i saw a study once that stated that most hunters go less that 200 yards into the woods, perhaps if they did, the would see the larger animals they are crying for. also, nothing against you, if you wish to let a spike or small four go by, yes it is hard, more power to you, for your goals are different than mine. i will drop that deer in a new york minute, for i need to fill/want to fill my freezer.

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

sorry, to throw some more numbers out there, during archery season, out of 654 2nd deer shot, 24% were bucks, so that is roughly 27 extra bucks shot there, and only 1% of all archery hunters bagged 2 deer. only 338 people harvested 3 deer, of which at least one was a buck, during all seasons combined, or less than 1%

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

VT,

I think you are missing the point of QDM. You say your numbers, age class, sex ratios, and habitat degredation is under control.......Do you realize you and your state is already following QDM for this to happen?!;)

Again, that' s all QDM is, and if you are already there, you are already following it.

So looking at it from the outside:

You ALREADY have a successful QDM state, your state ALREADY has a harvest strategy that promotes QDM, you ALREADY participate in your states current management plan that promotes and sustains QDM.......but you detest QDM?![:o]

You are already follow QDM and don' t even know it. Thanks for your support!:)

See the irony?!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

northjeff, i HATE you!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol, yes, from what i have read, we do seem to have all of the pieces put into place, and could be under the defintions of qdm already( god i hate admitting i' m wrong), we just don' t think of it that way. i believe that many people do, in fact, confuse qdm with trophy deer management, another thing i don' t care for. that is the program i truly dislike, because to me it seems that we are taking away the reason many of us hunt, for meat, and put too much emphasis on what a deer can grow out of it' s noggin. tdm seems like to me, could in the end, give hunters a black eye. i do have a question for anyone out there, though. according to qdma, and others, when a true qdm plan is put into place, being called by it' s name, such as in pa last year, the amount of posted land, and pay-per-kill areas, will increase. has anyone experienced this personally? our land here is posted enough, i can' t imagine what the hunting would be like if even more land were to be posted.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

VT, always glad to be hated!:D

I think in general, where you have quality hunting, whether it be state mandated, group or individual initiated, or just plain luck, tresspassing is even further frowned upon.

I' m a real estate appraiser by profession, and there is definately a trend towards paying a premium price for great deer property. Couple that with the fact that prices per acre, compared to wages, has increased so dramatically over the past 20 years that land is simply far too expensive to own, pay taxes on, take care of, to have some low life tresspasser come in and take advantage of you.

I personally, from when I was 4 years old and was required by my mom and dad to go to the local neighbors at the pond and ask for permission to fish, with signed index cards, NEVER stray on someone elses land unless I ask first, especially to hunt or on purpose for that matter.

Around here, just 13 years ago, and 80 acre parcel was 1/8th of my dad' s 1990 salary. When he retired in 2000, and 80 acre parcel was EQUAL to my dad' s 2000 salary. Taxes are also reflective of property values, so not only has the cost per acre increased substantially, but taxes have as well.

I guess bottom line: The more it' s worth, either in quality or price......the more you care!

VT, by the way, does that mean you' ll become a member of the QDMA now!;), since your an ardant supporter and all!?:)

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

Do you live in Barre? I work in Montpelier. Small world isn’t it!

Ok, counter points . . .

As far as the harvest results go, whether it’s 47% or 50% 1.5 year old bucks taken the point is that I feel it is too high a number. They are not mature animals. I know many people don’t care which is why they get shot in the first place. It’s a vicious circle. People shoot the first buck they see because there is a good chance it will be the last buck they see in a season. If everyone passed on 1.5 year old bucks, we would be seeing more bucks, which in turn could result in seeing more mature bucks.

I also realize a very small percent of people take more than 1 buck in a year. Again the point is if you are only allowed one buck a year, when you draw on the spike during bow season you may not release that arrow because you will be all done for the year. You may decide to wait for a larger animal, which in turn could help young bucks mature.

Buck to Doe Ratio – sorry but I still don’t buy it. 1:3 would be awesome for places like Texas, Illinois, and Saskatchewan. It’s not even close in Vermont.

As far as bucks per square mile and deer per square mile, 1.99 and 3.69 aren’t bad for Vermont. I hunt western New York where 5.6 to 8.0 bucks per square mile (not sure what the total deer per square mile is).

Deer yard management. Because we aren’t finding scores of dead deer doesn’t mean the yards don’t need help. If they were improved, deer would fare much better through the critical winter months and begin the spring stronger and healthier. Again, this would result in larger bodies, stronger fawn survival, and larger antlers because the bucks would be spending less time regaining weight.

I understand that you dislike the QDM concept, and I respect your opinion. I do think that there are many in this state that are ready for and want a change. How many people do you know who hunt deer in other states besides Vermont? Could it be because they have a better chance at a mature buck in NH, ME, MA, and NY. Sad but true. I wish F&W would take one WMU and institute an antler restriction and issue a few more antlerless permits. Give it three years and see what an awesome unit it would be.

One other thing, large antlers is a by-product of good deer managemt[8D]

. . . Rob

RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?
 

hey jeffHAHAHAHAH, QDMA, HAHAHAHAHAHAH. i just got an e-mail back from the state, and this out to really put those here in vt' s ( not directed at you, rob) panties in a twist. apparently we are at the higher end of our carrying capacity of deer, yet many people say that they don' t ever see deer. to knock down our deer herd to get it closer to a qdm acceptable capacity, that would mean shooting more does, yet the state has been cutting back on issueing doe permits. something isn' r making sense here, if we need to protect the wintering habitat, shoot does, but take the amount of permits away at the same time? anyone understand that logic? rob, i know that many people question the ratio, i wasn' t certain myself, but i e-mailed almost every state agency in the country after the montpelier meeting, and one of the things that i asked them was whether or not our method of determining the ratio was acceptable, and all of the agencies replied yes to that question, so i guess that would mean that we have to accept their numbers regarding sex ratio. and as far as doing qdm in a wmu, we can' t willy-nilly choose one, like was tried this spring in the legislatue. i have researched this one, consulted with qdma experts, and to try it, we should be doing it in the islands, beacuse of several reasons, including a captive herd, limited access to deer, good habitat and genetics are there also. we need to also follw the plan, according to guidelines, for at least 5 years to get a true picture of any potential. as far as using antler erestrictions like you suggested, it has been proven time and time again that antler restrictions fail as a tool of qdm, many states have stopped using restrictions because of failure, and i have had, can' t find it now, a study that suggests that antler restrictions may actually be detrimental to a herd. also, don' t forget this point, under a qdm planwhich many people seem to forget, the total buck harvest will decrease, never to be reached again at current levels. people complain now, what do you think they will do about that one? also, does it really matter if you see more bucks, if you can' t shoot them? what does that accomplish?