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qdm=loss of hunting skills?

Old 08-06-2003, 06:50 AM
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Old 08-06-2003, 08:54 AM
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Fork Horn
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

sling, lol the only thing that i was managing for was my freezer, the buck came in during the buck season, the doe during the optional ( for the first one) archery season later on. i would have taken a buck had the chance arisen. brian, i agree with you about qdm sitting better in areas with a larger deer population. we are managed for a herd of 140-15000, with an annual goal, total seasons combined of somewhere around 18-20000. but, i should mention that according to state statistics, during our file season, where only one buck is allowed, of the roughly 9000 bucks shot, 47-49% of these deer were mature deer. we have a pre hunt ratio of 1-3 mature deer. plus, we are within our carrying capacity, so, i guess the state is doing a pretty fair job of managing out herd. can' t understand how/ why some people here think we need improvement through a qdm plan, these are acceptable goals under most qdm plans.
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Old 08-06-2003, 10:38 AM
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

Food plots in my opinion are designed to hopefully enhance the overall health of your deer herd. Just because you plant some clover doesn' t mean they come running in saying shoot me shoot me. That is far from the case, in my experience. You may see more deer but without the foodplot I would just find a stand of oaks, and still do, that are dropping acorns where the deer are feeding. So if going out in the woods to find some trees that have acorns and hunting there makes me a better hunter than hunting over a food plot or a trail to a food plot so be it. I don' t see how it is any different. MOST of the time the key to harvesting a nice animal is and always will be the rut. Trust me they don' t run over you just because you throw out some clover seed.
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Old 08-06-2003, 11:46 AM
  #24  
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?


ORIGINAL: vtbuckrulrss
can' t understand how/ why some people here think we need improvement through a qdm plan, these are acceptable goals under most qdm plans.

vtbuckrulrss - LOL - Nobody on this thread said that QDM is the only legitimate form of deer management. Not sure if that is just a general statement you are making or what. I can sympathize with you a little bit if you feel bombarded with QDM info, but you did choose to post in the QDM forum didn' t you? What did you expect to hear?

Thanks Brian - Now I understand why vtbuckrulrss feels his state has so much control over the deer harvest on a local level. It sounds like his state is in herd building mode right now, so the lack of doe tags is probably forcing hunters to fall into the state' s management scheme (herd building). Depending on the growth potential of the herd, once they start approaching K it will be interesting to see if the hunters can convert from a bucks-only type of management to a numbers management scheme. Once the doe harvest becomes an important factor, the personal preferences/opinions of hunters can start to override the goals set by the state on the local level.



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Old 08-06-2003, 12:05 PM
  #25  
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

hey sling, just wanted to clarify my last statement, when i said" here" i meant in vt, not on the board, i read it again after you brought it up and can see how you took it, my fault. i don' t know if we are in a rebuilding phase, we used to have a much larger herd in the 60' s and 70' s( long before i could hunt), but i think w experienced a few crashes( herd was being managed by the lawmakers, not the f&w dept.), plus they were eating themselves out of house and home. i think the dept determined that what we have for an overall number is about what the habitat, and humans, can take. by the way, lol, i still have a pretty good size chunk missing from the bite you took, too!!!!! not mad at anyone, you are right, i asked for opinions, and i got them. if i couldn' t take it, i would have never written back.


you can' t learn if ya don' t listen.
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Old 08-06-2003, 03:39 PM
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

vt; when you talk about losing skills what skills are you refering to? Don' t take it that I' m trying to throw you back into the bullpit, but I believe that the hunting skills of the modern bowhunter are superior to the rifle hunter of say 50 years ago. Skills are hard to define, are they knowledge, common sense, or that sixth sense that some people have when it comes to locating deer?

How would you rate the different hunting forms for skill:
- hunting from a stand in a game farm (rifle)
- driving with dogs
- driving with people
- baiting
- tree or ground stand hunting in a natural area (rifle)
- tree or ground stand hunting in a natural area (bow)
- stalking/still hunting

I couldn' t even conceive how poor my success rate would be stalking in a natural area with a bow, but it might end up being the most satisfying. Take away cover scents and camo and the main skills are your movement and your location while keeping the sun to your back and the wind in your face.

Dan O.
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Old 08-06-2003, 05:03 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

vtbuckrulrss - I was not really trying to take a piece of you. I could not, for the life of me, figure out why we were not on the same page. After looking at Brian' s post, it finally clicked. I am a little slow, but I get there eventually.

Over the past few weeks, this board has covered deer management in Michigan, Canada, and now Vermont. Each with its own unique conditions. Hopefully the board will continue this North American tour. Each stop helps complete the total management picture.

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Old 08-07-2003, 06:27 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

QDM is definately more palatable to hunters who hunt in areas with plentiful antlerless tags and a population that already has at least a few mature bucks present.
Great quote Brian. You always know exactly how to say what us dummies can' t figure out how to type...even though we may be thinking along the same lines.

VT, like sling...I now understand better where you are coming from. I honestly don' t know how I' d feel if I lived in an area that had the population and laws like you have. ??? I would probably have different feelings than I do now. I remember many years ago, hunting where I do now....it was alot different. The pop was alot less, and taking a buck was a big deal. But over the past 20 years...things have changed big time with the population. Coming from a state where I can shoot over 100 does if I want, it' s hard for me to comprehend having to " try" to get a doe tag []

I applaud your efforts of digging in to QDM, and trying to figure out what it' s all about. Most don' t understand really, and don' t make the effort. They just immediately assume it' s all about " antlers" .

And by the way...I was serious about the concrete work...send me a pm.
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Old 08-07-2003, 06:58 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

geesum, dan, i thought you were one of the few that i was getting along with, but ok,since i am mostly healed up, i' ll give it a shot, as long as everyone realizes we are all entitled to our own opinions, we don' t have to agree. i guess forms first, on a scale of 1 being low, 5 high,
from a stand on a game farm, 2
drivening w/dogs( got caught up in one once, not as easy as one would think. deer way in front of dogs, dogs not even close to people, saw as an outsider as they went by me) 3
driving w/people 4
baiting 2
tree stand hunting rifle 4
tree stand bow 5
stalking/still hunting 5 depending upon deer population, the more deer, the lower number i would rate it.

while bow hunt, i don' t know if i would say that we are better bow hunters than 50 years ago, simply because we have so much gear available to attach to our bows, and with the improvement of modern bows, the actual shooting end of it is becoming easier and easier, almost to the point and shoot phase. and with the invention of heat seeking deer finders, we are losing one skill of deer hunting, tracking a wounded animal. judging by post in different areas of the forum, it sounds like many people out there who shoot at deer have the mentality that if it isn' t dropping right off, shoot more lead, and if it still runs, either they are too lazy, or not good enough to track a wounded animal and don' t care. i guess on your skills section, yes, i would say that all of what you mentioned are things to be taken into consideration as being important to me. so many people today seem like they would rather put some food outside the camp window, play cards, shoot a deer over it, and be happy to have done so for the bragging rights. seen this happening in my own family to a group of guys that 15 years ago i would have put their skills up against anyone, if there was a deer in the woods, they knew where it was, what it did, almost even when it went to the bathroom it seemed like, they were that devoted to stalking, tracking, etc. but with age( mostly 40' s+) came ease and laziness. they don' t " hunt" anymore, and because of this, while i visit during the season, rarely do i hunt with them, all they want to do is put on drives or sit on a pile of apple pumice, or talk about hunting( boy, someone should really go walk up by the spring and see what is up there) something else to think about, considering the tech. that we have available, with cover scents, sights, single cams, double cams, how would you rate todays bow hunter of one just 25, 30 years ago? i would say that we are not nearly as good as those 30 years ago, they simply had less to work with to be successful.
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Old 08-07-2003, 08:05 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: qdm=loss of hunting skills?

QDM is:

1. Adequate buck age structure

2. Populations maintained at or below the carrying capacity

3. Adequate sex ratios

EVERY deer herd (and many others animals, fish, birds, etc..) need those 3 aspects to produce optimum health. Some areas have populations way below carrying capacity, and can be raised, some areas have great sex ratios, and some areas already have adequate buck age structure. But, where a QDM plan fits in, in an otherwise decent herd structure, is to insure the long term maintainance of that decent herd structure. Those 3 principles are the model, and a plan for any area just needs to be maintained, or improved, to insure the successful implementation of those 3 principles.

It sounds like VT' s area may already have most of the pieces of the puzzle in place to satisfy the necessaties of a QDM plan, but that doesn' t mean a QDM plan is not appropriate. On the contrary, a QDM plan is needed to insure the quality of VT' s area is maintained at it' s current high level. A QDM plan will set concrete numbers of maintainance to insure a quality herd, and develop a plan that can be constantly referred to cut off any potential problems of herd dynamics that may arrise.

Unfortunately, QDM is commonly misunderstood and put into the same management plan as trophy management or unlimited doe harvest, and this is simply untrue. Just because a QDM plan is being developed for a certain area, it does not imply that anything at all even needs to be done, it just means that the 3 proven principles of QDM will be followed, and maintained.

It' s really pretty simple. Follow the 3 principles and you have a QDM plan. In most areas of the country changes need to be made, but not all areas need the same changes, and not all areas needed to even be changed, but that doesn' t mean QDM is good for one area, and not for another.

QDM applies everywhere it is used......but that doesn' t mean all of your does will be shot, or that you don' t have decent age structure or decent sex ratios already.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
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