Food plot where the cows roam
 

Do you think a herd of about 20 cows will devistate 2 acres of clover and 2 acres of corn? The cows get fed hey every day and have aporox. 100 acres to roam the woods/fields. It' s newly aquired land and I have ideas with high hopes and serious doubts.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

They will destroy it in a matter of days. I know from exp. i run cows next to my hunting and use a hotwire to keep them in.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

That plot would make a nice snack for 20 cows. Old pasture is not nearly as tempting as young clover to the cattle. An electric fence will keep them out. But; they' ll be in the plot as soon as the fence is turned off. The other pasture will be grazed out and your plot will be even more of a temptation.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Thanks you two for the replies! I figured so but was hoping the answer would be they would keep it low enough that I wouldn' t have to cut it.

So you guys are saying deer wouldn' t mind getting zapped!? Or say they will learn to jump in and not freek out and run to the next county after a few zaps?

What does a system like this run? Lets just figure on an acre as this is gettin to be a pain:D

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

A 3 ft. high electric fence to a deer is like you stepping over a garden hose on the grass. They hop my neighbours fence routinely. If you can get old posts (even 4 ft. rebar) the insulators, wire and battery operated unit should be about $100. A plug in unit is more expensive but you never need a battery (just a long extension cord) LOL.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Yeah in this case a couple thousand yds of cord:D Well I might write this section with the cows off. Don' t know how the farmer would feel about new fence. Down the road 1/4 mile is another partial with an abandon (un used) hay field. The hay is waist high. My guess is I have to mow it and kill it and till it and kill again and test and lime and fertilize and maybe next year have nice crop by this time. Don' t you just love new land!:)

Thanks for the help Dan!

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

If it' s clover or alfalfa hay, a few timely cuttings and an overseeding with clover in the spring might rejuvenate it. My bird' s foot trefoil is spreading like crazy where I mow the grass short. It' s thinning out in the field where it has to compete with the taller grass and there is less mowing.

The frequent mowings also keep the clover etc, more tender for the deer.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Dan O. Man O Man now you have me on the edge of my seat! How can I tell what kind of hay it is. All I know about hay around here is that it feeds local cows and horses.

So your saying I don' t have to start from scratch(bare soil) if it' s one of the two types of hay? I just mow it and sow away? How short and often do you mow?

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Just look at the hay for alfalfa or clover. If it' s all grass you' ll be starting from almost scratch. If there' s 25%or more of clover/alfalfa you' ve got a good start. I' d mow every 4-6 weeks to keep the grass down. I' ll check the internet to see if I can find a site on pasture renovation for you.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

This is off the web:

Renovate Pastures to Increase Production at Lower Costs

Renovating pastures by introducing legumes into an existing grass field without plowing is not new. It has been around in some sections of the USA for at least 50 years. In other areas, it has been used very little simply because farmers either do not know it’s advantages or know how to go about the process. So here goes!

Why put legumes into grass fields when commercial nitrogen in the form or ammonium nitrate is so accessible? Mainly it’s a matter of better animal performance. Livestock just ‘do-better’ on the mixture than they do on straight grass. Research has shown and farmers have proven that an 8-12 pound seeding rate of red clover costs about a dollar a pound and will produce as much forage as $50-$65 invested in nitrogen (ammonium nitrate @ $220 per ton @ 150-200 pounds of N per acre). Also when legumes are added to grass, the production distribution is better throughout the spring, summer and fall grazing months than grass alone.

Pasture renovation improves conception rates as well as cattle gains. In an Illinois study, it was found that cow conception rates on grass and legume pastures was 89% compared to 75% on straight grass. And, the calves from these mixed pastures weighed an average 50 pounds more at weaning.

Renovation also produces more milk. In a Tennessee study, milk production increased 6 pounds per day or 1,800 pounds in a 305 day lactation period when grazing a clover-grass mix versus grass and nitrogen.

A study by Purdue University researchers puts the entire picture together when it comes to the beef cow-calf herd. Over a three-year period using 100 cows, the renovated pastures produced 20 more calves each year. All of the calves in the herd on the clover-grass pastures weighed 85 pounds heavier than the matched calves on pastures with grass and nitrogen. When the 20 more calves saved are added to the increased weights for all of the calves, that’s an additional 15,000 pounds more beef. At a dollar a pound for stockers today, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that’s $15000 more gross income from that 100 cow herd for a seed cost of $10-$12.

Renovating Grass Fields with Red Clover

Seeding clovers into cool season grass fields (tall fescue, orchardgrass, bluegrass, smooth bromegrass) is more successful in the early spring than in the fall. There are three basic systems: 1) with tillage 2) Tred-in and 3) with minimum or no tillage. All systems are explained below:.

1) When using the tillage system plant as early as possible! This provides earlier growth from competing weeds and kicks the early growth off to a great start.

Graze or mow the grass prior to renovation. This allows the tillage tools to penetrate the soil and leave a minimum deposit of trash so that the seed has a better chance for contact with the soil.
Test the soil and apply the needed lime, phosphate and potash. No Nitrogen!
Seed RedlanGraze red clover or Redland III at 10-12 pound rate. If you decide to include 1-2 pounds of white clover, you can reduce the red clover rate by 2 pounds per acre.
There are three systems of renovating that work well with clovers. Conventional System: With a field cultivator, tiller, or disc harrow, open 40-60% of the grass sod. This tillage can and should be done in the late fall or early winter so that early spring plantings are more feasible. If the soil is likely to erode because of slope and soil type, till on the contour. In the spring, smooth the ground and plant the clover seed.
2) The Tred-In Method: When fields are too hilly to mechanically till or if you want to reduce costs of renovating, this system works well. Confine a large population of livestock to a small acreage at a time so that the livestock can till the soil with their feet. When necessary, feed hay in areas that are somewhat isolated to get even tillage. Increase the seeding rate by 2-4 pounds and plant early and keep the cattle on the fields to ‘punch’ the seed in the soil.

3) Chemical renovation plus No-Till drill system: This is the new look. The use of Gramoxone plus surfactant or Roundup are great substitutes for tillage. The only differences are 1) the resident vegetation needs to be green for these chemicals to work so the plantings will be later. 2) the use of a no-till drill is necessary for best results. Very often, two sprays are necessary for best results. One can be applied in the fall while the vegetation is still green the second after green-up in the spring. Don’t bury the seed when you seed with the no-till drill! For more details on no-till seeding with herbicides, go to no-till seeding alfalfa in the Alfalfa Grazing Section in our web site.

Newly renovated fields should be grazed closely to keep the grass under control until the livestock start biting off the new legumes. Then remove them and allow the clover to establish (4-6 weeks). At that time, you can start grazing or mowing the fields to suit your program.
Grazing management is important when carrying capacity and returns are important. Rotational grazing that allows the livestock to take the clovers to 2-3 inches of top growth is ideal. Then, remove them to allow the legumes to recover.
Don’t forget to top-dress fertilize as needed. Let your soil tests determine what materials are needed and how much. In most sections (except the deep southern states) red clover will flourish for two years and in some regions, some farmers are able to get as much as three years from a planting. Experienced growers have formed a habit of over-seeding as the livestock are grazing early each spring. This practice helps to keep a viable stand of clover ‘coming-on’ every year so that renovating is not so imperative.




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Please contact Web-Toes Design with any problems with this site -- [email protected]

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Thankyou Dan! [8D]

That info is great! I printed out a copy and plan to show it to the farmer that owns the land and cows. The friend has a 500 acres farm split up in three sections. Two by way of a dirt road and the other piece by way of adjoining property. We now have sole use of the land for hunting and help with work when needed. We will also be managing the deer herd as they are devastating his corn on one piece of the property. The other two are void of crops. An abandon piece has a field with waist high hey (not in use) of aprox. 10acres. The other piece is home to twenty or so cows and holds a hidden field 3 acres in size. This field is grazed to nil with grass.

Rotating the cows in this field sounds like it might work and we both benefit from that. Maybe if I planted in the hole three acres instead of just one or two. Fencing would be an issue, as I don’t like the idea of a cheesy electric fence. Feels to temporary. Maybe barbed wire around three acres wouldn’t be too much trouble. Close regulation would be the key it sounds. I might ad that the cows will have another 10 acre field of there own and aprox. half mile of pipeline to feed as well as a daily supply of hay. They won' t be void of food on the off cycle. Am I grasping for straws here or what? What do you think of this method?

I’ll check the hay field tomorrow and see what I have. My guess is it’s mostly grass because if it were anything else it would strike me as out of the ordinary and it just looks like any ol’ hay field. Above that is a sparse apple orchard of about 7 acres. It might be possible to plant there though I only walked threw it once so far and all I was looking at, at the time was trees for stands. This will be my first experience with planting anything other than arrows. I appreciate all your help!

Thanks again!

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

I would concentrate on the apple orchard, particularly if it is not graized or harvested. The apples provide one food source already. Plant clovers in it by one way or the other and keep it mowed and fertilized. This should provide an area that has two food sources that deer like.

An electric fence is easier and quicker to put up then a barb wire fence. Another advantage of it is that it will do a better job of keeping cows out then a barb wire fence. Disadvantages are that you need to get electric to it and maintain the fence at regular intervals (this may not mean anymore then checking to see if all the wires still have current).

Top seeding clovers in hay fields can have variable success rates.

Most farmers are pretty independent and don' t like to be told what to do. Sounds kind of funny that he is not using the hayfields to harvest hay. Are you sure they are not CRP land.

I presume you know this, but if you are there to help reduce crop damage, be sure to take a fair share of does and don' t try to build up the heard.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Mantis; most farmers use battery operated electric fencing on their back forty. A battery should last a season if the grass is kept low and the cows have half a brain. I like the sound of the apple orchard too. You' ll need to trim out the dead wood and any crossing branches to get it fruiting again.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Greg thanks for posting!

Your insight towards the planting in the apple orchard is exactly what I was thinking. Unfortunately I wasn’t able to take a look today but will do for sure tomorrow unless the bow shop tells me my bows in!

Barbed wire vs. electric:

I figured this out today and by no means am I a math wiz or farmer so bare with me and if you see significant error please inform me!

Option 1:

3.86 acre field

Cost of electric system: In the ballpark of $130 (this includes system, insulators, and wire)


Option 2

3.86 acre field
1750 feet
.33 miles

1 roll of barbwire: $34
1 roll =80 rods or around ¼ mile

Price of wire needed: 4 rolls at $34 =$136

Before I searched I was sure the barbed wire would be way more $$ than electric. Not so with my figures. The barbwire keeps the cows in his property why wouldn’t it keep them out of the plot? Is it the incentive value? Both of you show favor towards electric fence.

Lets look at barbed wire in both positive and negative views. It would take maybe three times the time to put up. But once up it’s there for a long time. Yearly repairs might take little time. Barbwire lined fields look a heck of a lot better than electric fence fields. You don’t have to worry about shorts in the circuit.

Now Electric fences have a shorter life expectancy. A battery probably need to be bought every couple years at a cost of $20 a pop. Circuit failure is an issue. It wouldn’t take as long to put up. I’m thinking they’re not bear proof.

Please add or alter the two above and elaborate on your beliefs. I’m confused by your choice of fence.



The property the cows are located has a total of about 200 acres. The barbed wire enclosure covers 9/16th of that. Outside the wire at the back end is a thick section of the woods that is figured to be a bedding area for deer along with a steep ridge running along the entire edge of the property (also a possible bedding area.) The 4 acre field is located in the enclosure on the top of the hill surrounded by land and secluded by viewers. If I can make a food plot work in this field it would be awesome. The property with the hay field and apple orchard is located a half mile down the road and approximately 100 acres of private land divide the cow section and the this section. In theory, food plots in both sections would move the herd from his corn during it’s growing (most vulnerable) cycle as well as provide my father brother and I, ideal hunting opportunities. Across the road from the two above pieces of land holds the farmers hay and corn crops. This is situated on the river bottom and forested land is small. Around 70 acres or so. This piece is targeted for crop damage permits by the farmer. I will admit that I don’t know how many deer we are working with here. The farmer addressed this concern and told us he was applying for crop damage permits. I do know that buck to doe ratios in this area are off and doe harvest will be targeted on the property. Our goal is to balance the herd not build it. Do you think putting in two or three crops in the sizes of 1 to 4 acres will build an uncontrollable deer herd? This thought crossed my mind as well and I think it would not. In my original post I mentioned corn. Corn we all know is a major deer attractant when the greens go south. My original fear is that if or when the frost hits my crops are done and the herd moves across the road to his corn. This sounds pretty accurate. This is why I believe I must plant a crop of corn or other winter grasses and weat.




This farmer grows enough corn and hay for his farm. The farmer harvests in the ballpark of 100 acres of hay. Judging by the size of his crops he does not market it. The abandon Hay field is on uneven ground ½ mile down the road. I asked him if he harvested the hay in this piece and he said no. This property is used mainly for gravel now on the lower section and storage in the abandon tobacco barns. It also is lined along the perimeter with barbwire and was probably long ago a cow pasture. Before that I guess the property was used for the growing of tobacco.

You describe this farmer to a T. He doesn’t let anyone push him around and is very independent. He has become a friend to the family. He has a full time job as well and works with my father. One thing led to another after a few years of working together and last month my father tells me about our newly acquired land.

Cows were getting shot, tire tracks threw crops, gunshots to close to the house. A lot of stuff was going on in the last few years of him letting “anyone” hunt the land I guess.


It’s hard to explain and still hard to believe but he approached my father about it and is now giving us sole hunting rights and asked us to post it and do with it how we see fit. I was shooting out my ideas about the plots and he had absolutely no problem with it. Even said I could use his equipment. That’s when I told him we would be more than happy to help around farm with anything he needed. The guy is one of a kind! Seriously the coolest farmer I’ve ever met.



Dan, you should see this orchard! There are deer trails everywhere. It’s not in rows though more natural looking and if I remember was open enough to plant. I’ll check tomorrow! Hey is it ok to trim the branches this time of year?

What else…… O yea barbwire Vs. electric fence. Who will win? [>:]

Deer herd issues....Give me your thoughts!

Please feel free to speak your mind about what you would do in my place. I want this place to glow in a few years.

Thanks for everything![8D]

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Have you taken into account that you will need posts, either wood or metal to string this barbed wire on? Try not to nail the wire on the trees (if any) as it will grow around the wire. Buying posts may be more expensive than the wire.We use metal posts and if possible we set them with a backhoe. Saves a lot of labor with a post driver.
Russ

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Russ I was thinking about different ways of doing that. I actually was settling on using the trees because this is what the guy does. It’s still in the air on weather to use post exclusively. I’m sure your right about it being more expensive than wire. It would also go from a small to huge job if I had to post dig 300 holes. I don’t know…..trees are all ready there!! I’ll talk with the farmer about it and see what he wants me to do.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Mantis; You should have several strands if you' re using barbwire. You also need " T" posts at $6 each and a post driver (or cedar posts and an auger). With the electric fence you can use tomato posts with no driving or just use old 4' rebar. You can move the electric fence in the future if you want to, try doing that with barbed wire.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Ok I' ll go with the electric system. Just wanted to make sure, ya know.;)

I checked out the other peice today with the apple orchard. It' s bigger than I thought. Maybe ten acres. The grass in this area is about up to my knees. The center has a natural figure eight shaped clearing perfect for a 2 acre plot. The trees are full of apples and some do need to be trimmed out a little. The hay field below that is shot and I only found a hint of clover in it.

That property was logged some years back and most of the forest is opened up quite a bit. In fact there is a bed of grass all threw big chunks of it. It looks like I might even be able to put in a couple other stand plots up in their.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Mantis; about your question on trimming. The best advise I' ve been given on when to trim is " It doesn' t matter when you trim only how you trim" . Some nut trees will bleed badly if you trim them before they leaf out.

You can cut out the dead wood and that will give you a better picture of the remaining limbs. Then work on removing branches that are growing over each other. Just don' t remove more than about 10 -20% of the living wood in one year. The cuts should be clean and made to leave no stub.

Dan O.

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Sounds like you have a good situation lined up. Shoot does like crazy. Legumes should still be green and tender yet by the time the farmer harvest his crop if done at the typical harvest time of Oct. or early Nov. A corn plot should be a real magnet late in the year if you get up. I would have plots in the apple orchard and the pasture. Here' s an ideal for that old unused hay field: Mowed it this fall and keep the grass down low. Topseed clover heavily late winter, and keep it mowed in the spring until the clover has a chance to compete with the grass. Fertilze for clover as well in the spring once you know you have a decent stand.

On fences: Trees are not the ideal place to put up barb wire fence. The reasoning behind this is two fold. One is that they will damage the tree. Two is that eventual the tree will grow around the wire and cause the wire to rust and break. Saying this, I do and will use trees on my farm in the right situation. Generally as corner post or anchoring divise inbetween long streches of wire. I realized the disadvantage and settle for the advantages that are trees are easier, quicker and cheaper then setting large metal or wood brace posts. Some people insulate the trees by placing a piece of tin or metal between the wire and the tree. Never wrap a tree completely in barb wire because this results in the eventual death of the tree.

On cost associated with fences, numerous extension office has determine that electric fences are cheaper in the long run. However, they are a real pain in the back end when you consider the upkeep time. It' s a real pain to replace the electric shocker when it gets zap by lightning. In the mean time, if cattle finds that its not working, they will walk right through an electric fence. You did not include a battery or post on your cost analysis of electric fences.

I have 3 or 4 wire barb wire on all of my food plots. There is less maintenace with barb wire. Some hints if you choose barb wire, go with 4 wires so the calves can not craw through and place the first three wires relatively close together for the same reason. Be sure to have good corner post (or trees) and stretch the wire very tight. In my area, you can buy high tensil barb wire on sale for about $22 a row. Gaugo (sp) and Red Brand are some name brands in my area. They are generally easier to work with and will actually last as long if not longer then the heavire gauge wire that you priced. Six foot steel post run about $2 on sale. Place a post about every 4 steps (10 to 14 feet). You can buy a hand driver (a heavy weighted closed pipe like devise) for about $20. You will need something to strech the wire with as well. Likely, the farmer will have the equipment to build a barb wire fence, you will just need to buy the wire and hte post. He will probably know the best places to buy the supplis as well and when they will be on sale (generally in the fall and the spring).

On electric fences, use at least two wire fence with each one hot. A three wire scheme works well too and middle wire will be the only one that will need to be hot. If you a battery shocker, use a marine battery to power it. Put some type of lightning protection devise on it. Be sure to use the adequate number of ground rods to ground the fence.

I hope I am not insulting your intellegence by anything I am writing. I am writing this as if you are a complet green horn.

Good luck

gred

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

Here' s a little trick I use in putting wire on trees. I put a treated 2X4 on the tree using two large spikes and use that as a base for mounting the wire. That way the tree cannot grow around the wire. And it' s possiblwe to remove the board and nails if you take the fence down. I think I remember you saying that the farmer has had timber cut in the past. If loggers cut trees with metal in them they can get very upset as it can ruin a saw blade when cutting lumber from them. I have heard that in some cases they have come back on the owner. When I had Pines cut last year, I marked trees that might contain metal for the logger.
Russ

RE: Food plot where the cows roam
 

You guys have been great!

Greg, I' m a greenhorn[:-] Thankyou for being so informative!

Dan, thanks for the cutting tips!

Russ, Good tip with the 2x4. I will use this idea with the electric wire in some spots.