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pie-bald

Old 12-16-2005, 04:38 PM
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I just got in from a bow hunt stalk. It was pretty cool, I got within 50 yards of a piebald doe but couldn't get close enough for a shot. This is the second piebald doe I've seen and there is a spike (not legal in PA) that looks like her brother on our land. I've seen other does with large white patches on their legs, so the genes are spreading. What are everyone's thoughts on harvesting these deer for herd management?
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Old 12-16-2005, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: pie-bald

Shoot em if you want to. Those genes are floating around out there and shooting a few probably won't make any difference.
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Old 12-17-2005, 01:27 AM
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Default RE: pie-bald

A pie-bald deer is a recessive gene. Most grow smaller antlers, have stumpy leggs, and most don't grow that large. If you are interested in quality deer, I would recommend getting rid of every one out there. Yes, they are unique, but not something I like on my hunting lands. I take out any that I may see. I just don't want that gene running through the herd. As always in wildlife, you may find a good trophy pie-bald, but if you look at the record book, I don't think any of them were pie-bald deer.
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Old 12-20-2005, 10:28 PM
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Default RE: pie-bald

I beg to differ. The recessive gene here is for pigment. I have seen many piebalds as a taxidermist, as well as many more as a deer farmer. I have seen the sloped muzzles, the small palmated antlers as well as the bowed and short front legs on piebalds...incidently, at the same rate I see it on typical brown colored deer. I have personally seen P&Y 2 and 3yr old piebalds in the wild, hunter harvested. I have seen 300 plus lb pieds in captivity with near B&C antlers. Seneca Army Depot in Romulus NY has a herd known across the country for being all white pieds. Michigan has similar animals there.

I say enjoy these unique animals, and harvest one if you choose. I would not, however, suggest eradicating them as genetically inferior animals.
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Old 12-20-2005, 10:58 PM
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They are probably genetically inferior from a predator-prey standpointand probablyfrom a herd health standpoint also. Any trait that effects natural camoflague or any predator avoidance mechanism should be aggressively harvested IMO. Uless you would like increased predation and/or hunter harvest in your herd.

The accompanying scoliosis, decreased lower jawand leg length probably aren't traits you want to foster in your herd if you want to look at it from a herd health standpoint.

It may be a homozygous recessive gene but it's supposedly more common than albino and I'd recommend you harvest them if you come across them.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:30 PM
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Default RE: pie-bald

Like I said, the jaw and leg malformities are found in normal colored deer too. It occurs regardless of color. As for the increase in predation due to color/avoidance mech, I would say that if that did exist, predators wouldve taken care of them, thus making this all a moot point!

How do you account for the many healthy and thriving captive pieds?
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:39 AM
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ORIGINAL: Bill Yox

Like I said, the jaw and leg malformities are found in normal colored deer too. It occurs regardless of color. As for the increase in predation due to color/avoidance mech, I would say that if that did exist, predators wouldve taken care of them, thus making this all a moot point!

How do you account for the many healthy and thriving captive pieds?
They are captive. Anything can thrive when it's being taken care of, three legged animals, albinos,etc. I'm not advocating that they can't survive or that they will ruin a herd. I'm advocating that it's probably not a good idea to keep them around, depending on how often it occurs. It's not like they all get predated upon as soon as they hit the ground but I'm willing to bet it effects thier long term survival. Just like if you went to Iraq in an orange jump suit your chances of survival would be less than that of a camoflague wearing person, unless you took other specific measures to offset the increased risk. Could you survive? Sure. Would the probability of your survival be lower all things being equal? Yes. I shouldn't have to explain this to you it's basic biology.

Of course all kinds of malformations occur in a normal population regardless of color. Does that mean he should harbor this recessive gene just because it happens to occur with a specific pigmentation defect? No, it's just another instance of recessive traits that he probably won't want if he is concerned at all about herd health. Really it comes down to this: what would be a the reason for keeping them in the herd? Because they look "neat"? That's fine I was just giving my opinion and I see very few benefits to leaving them in the herd.
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:54 AM
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Default RE: pie-bald

Actually, this particular deer looks like a goat. It's legs are very short and she appears to barrel chested. I've been trying to ambush her but she is very wary. I guess I would be too if I stood out like that. I am going to concentrate my efforts for the rest of the extended season on her to fill my last tag. I also see no upside on her staying in the herd. I would think the percentage of her giving birth to piebalds in the spring would be higher.
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:50 PM
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Default RE: pie-bald

The fact that the captive pieds were used as an example wasnt for survival, of course. It was an example how not all pieds are short legged inferior animals. It also illustrated how the RECESSIVE trait is PIGMENT, not physical abnormalities. To use your words,this shouldnt have to be explained either!Of those thatwere prone to predation as you say, we wouldnt have a problem with them, theyd be preyed upon. Those that are,no longer contribute to the population. Again, no explanation should be needed here.

Then ragin cajun sums things up nicely for my opinion, when he said how wary this animal seems to be. Yes, it does have the physical attributes described earlier, but I just dont see those few genetically waekening the herd. Like I said in my first post, not all pigment disorders go hand in hand with the other physical disorders, and Ive seen enough strong animals to support my opinion. Incidently, many states prohibit the taking of white or partially white deer. So much for culling. Ragin, good luck getting that deer, and whichever opinion you happen to subscribe to, enjoy your hunt! And to brutal attack, I enjoyed our exchange, and respect your opinion as well.
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Old 12-21-2005, 03:34 PM
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Default RE: pie-bald

ORIGINAL: Bill Yox

The fact that the captive pieds were used as an example wasnt for survival, of course. It was an example how not all pieds are short legged inferior animals. It also illustrated how the RECESSIVE trait is PIGMENT, not physical abnormalities. To use your words,this shouldnt have to be explained either!Of those thatwere prone to predation as you say, we wouldnt have a problem with them, theyd be preyed upon. Those that are,no longer contribute to the population. Again, no explanation should be needed here.

Then ragin cajun sums things up nicely for my opinion, when he said how wary this animal seems to be. Yes, it does have the physical attributes described earlier, but I just dont see those few genetically waekening the herd. Like I said in my first post, not all pigment disorders go hand in hand with the other physical disorders, and Ive seen enough strong animals to support my opinion. Incidently, many states prohibit the taking of white or partially white deer. So much for culling. Ragin, good luck getting that deer, and whichever opinion you happen to subscribe to, enjoy your hunt! And to brutal attack, I enjoyed our exchange, and respect your opinion as well.
I don't think you fully understand cohort survival (or my analogy) else you would probably think differently. It's not a matter of them being prone to predation (they are) it's a matter of how much they are bred before being predated upon. Higher probability does not equal certainty. Again, this is theorhetics that should be apparent.

I was assuming (correctly) that this particular deer and probably a few of her relatives displayed the accompaning physical appearance associated with piebalds. And lastly, because you don't see these physical traits weakening a herd, does not mean that they cannot or do not. I am just choosing to err on the side of caution. Also, as I pointed out, it is more common than albino so the definition of "few" may be debatable, I know that PA has some very high deer densities but I'd have to go dig up concrete population info.

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