Deer Hunting Behind Fences
01-10-2005, 03:31 PM
#81
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Kansas... Where Life is Good
Posts: 4,139
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
TX, It's all at the way you look at it. That basically is what the whole topic comes down to. One person looks at it one way and the other, another. Both sides have good reasons for each.
01-10-2005, 04:13 PM
#82
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 866
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
Posted on Sun, Jan. 09, 2005
Phil Bloom
Trial exposes the sham that is canned hunting
As the canned hunt crowd rallied around its beleaguered hero Russ Bellar last summer, it presented a variety of arguments intended to stick up for the guy after he was hit with a 38-count federal indictment that accused him of running an illegal deer hunting operation.
One of those arguments was that people opposed to canned hunts shouldn’t criticize what they’ve never seen or done. These places are really on the up-and-up, they said.
Well, over the past week the unknowing public got a detailed look at what goes on behind the high fences at one of those operations – Bellar’s Place, a 1,400-acre shooting preserve near Peru.
Witness after witness after witness after witness provided sworn testimony before a federal jury in U.S. District Court in South Bend about their experiences there:
•Country music star Ronnie Dunn testified that Bellar pointed out a deer for him to kill and that he shot it in a fenced-in pen. Under cross-examination by Bellar’s legal team, Dunn characterized the experience as something akin to “slaughtering cattle.”
•Michael Kattawar Jr. of Nashville, Tenn., testified that he paid $25,000 in 2003 to kill five bucks using a bow and a rifle while hunting near bait. Indiana deer-hunting regulations prohibit the use of bait and allow only one buck, but Kattawar said Bellar’s Place was willing to let him take “as many deer as you want as long as you pay for it.”
•Jeff Wickersham, who spent one season in the NFL as a quarterback with the Miami Dolphins, chose the deer he wanted to kill from a magazine.
“They gave me a price and I agreed to it,” he testified. “I was there to hunt that specific deer.”
Wickersham said the price was $20,000, that the deer was drugged and transported to the farm in a horse trailer. The deer was released from the trailer directly into the pen where Wickersham said he killed it in about 30 minutes after employees of Bellar’s Place chased it from the fence line.
•Wickersham’s friend, Tommy Freiman, testified that he didn’t want to “hunt” in a small pen and planned to kill a deer in a larger pen. Crunched for time because of a departing air flight, he ended up shooting one in the smaller pen anyway because he couldn’t wait any longer.
•Ivan Johnson of Jonesboro, Ga., testified he killed two bucks for a video promoting “Rack Attract,” a deer bait developed and owned by Hinds Tom Jones, Bellar’s property manager who pleaded guilty to a single conspiracy count in the federal indictment and is scheduled to take the stand this week. Johnson is an investor in Rack Attract.
•Johnson also admitted to complicity in a scheme to fool another of Bellar’s clients, his friend Roger Torri of Georgia. Torri testified that he wounded a deer at the facility in 2003 but couldn’t find it. A couple of weeks later, a deer Tommy Freiman had picked out died overnight after having been tranquilized. Freiman testified that he told Hinds Jones he no longer wanted a deer that was already dead. Freiman said Johnson began making phone calls to see who wanted the deer, describing the deer to people as if it had been shot. He got a taker on the second call. In separate testimony, Torri testified that Johnson called to say that his wounded deer had been found. In reality, it was the Freiman deer that had died from a tranquilizer overdose. Torri took the antlers.
•Fred Rowan, CEO and chairman of Carter’s Clothing Inc., testified that he shot three bucks in a 3- to 4-hour span with his son, Andy, who shot his buck within an hour in a 5- to 10-acre pen. They didn’t even stay the whole day, but Fred Rowan said he plunked down $20,000 for the biggest of his three deer, and $8,000 to $10,000 for the smaller two.
Many of these and other so-called “hunts” were videotaped by Rusty Camp for sale to the clients or to promote the facility to future clients. Camp said he made between 20 and 30 videos, of which five to 10 were fake.
“The hunts were pretty much done backward,” he told the court.
Camp said clients would shoot deer, then go back and re-enact for the cameras. He testified some clients had a hard time grasping the concept.
Not Sydney Meachum, a friend of Hinds Jones from Mississippi, who testified that he was invited by Bellar and Jones to help them make a video. Meachum said he learned when he got to Bellar’s Place that it was a “fake hunt.”
He then testified that he sat in a tree stand, fired an arrow and acted as if he had killed a deer. The deer was darted by a tranquilizer for the video. Meachum said that he’s left-handed but shot a right-handed bow for the video. He testified that fake blood was applied to the deer.
“I liked that,” Meachum said. “It made it look all real.” Real phony.
About as phony as the defense team’s efforts to portray Bellar as someone confused by the hunting rules and regulations of Indiana as they pertain to his pen-raised deer. That strategy took a blow Wednesday when Bellar’s Web site ( www.bellar.net ) was shown to the jurors. On the site was a statement advising clients “Since there is no exemption for hunting preserves in Indiana, we have to follow the states weapon seasons.”
The Web site that was accessed live in the courtroom Wednesday is no longer available. Someone pulled the plug.
All of this tells us that what went on at Bellar’s Place was a charade. It shouldn’t matter at this point what the jury decides in this case. It shouldn’t matter whether the jury blames Bellar or Jones or both, or neither.
The damage is done. Canned hunting has been exposed.
“It made it look all real.”
No, it was unreal.
Of course all this took place on a huge 1500 acre Pic N Shoot, LOL. A 1500 Pic N Shoot with a 5 acre shooting pen.
Right up until the first day of the trial all the little Pic N Shoot operators in Indiana were pointing to this very place as the shining example of what a Pic N Shoot operation should be.
Some still are.
Phil Bloom
Trial exposes the sham that is canned hunting
As the canned hunt crowd rallied around its beleaguered hero Russ Bellar last summer, it presented a variety of arguments intended to stick up for the guy after he was hit with a 38-count federal indictment that accused him of running an illegal deer hunting operation.
One of those arguments was that people opposed to canned hunts shouldn’t criticize what they’ve never seen or done. These places are really on the up-and-up, they said.
Well, over the past week the unknowing public got a detailed look at what goes on behind the high fences at one of those operations – Bellar’s Place, a 1,400-acre shooting preserve near Peru.
Witness after witness after witness after witness provided sworn testimony before a federal jury in U.S. District Court in South Bend about their experiences there:
•Country music star Ronnie Dunn testified that Bellar pointed out a deer for him to kill and that he shot it in a fenced-in pen. Under cross-examination by Bellar’s legal team, Dunn characterized the experience as something akin to “slaughtering cattle.”
•Michael Kattawar Jr. of Nashville, Tenn., testified that he paid $25,000 in 2003 to kill five bucks using a bow and a rifle while hunting near bait. Indiana deer-hunting regulations prohibit the use of bait and allow only one buck, but Kattawar said Bellar’s Place was willing to let him take “as many deer as you want as long as you pay for it.”
•Jeff Wickersham, who spent one season in the NFL as a quarterback with the Miami Dolphins, chose the deer he wanted to kill from a magazine.
“They gave me a price and I agreed to it,” he testified. “I was there to hunt that specific deer.”
Wickersham said the price was $20,000, that the deer was drugged and transported to the farm in a horse trailer. The deer was released from the trailer directly into the pen where Wickersham said he killed it in about 30 minutes after employees of Bellar’s Place chased it from the fence line.
•Wickersham’s friend, Tommy Freiman, testified that he didn’t want to “hunt” in a small pen and planned to kill a deer in a larger pen. Crunched for time because of a departing air flight, he ended up shooting one in the smaller pen anyway because he couldn’t wait any longer.
•Ivan Johnson of Jonesboro, Ga., testified he killed two bucks for a video promoting “Rack Attract,” a deer bait developed and owned by Hinds Tom Jones, Bellar’s property manager who pleaded guilty to a single conspiracy count in the federal indictment and is scheduled to take the stand this week. Johnson is an investor in Rack Attract.
•Johnson also admitted to complicity in a scheme to fool another of Bellar’s clients, his friend Roger Torri of Georgia. Torri testified that he wounded a deer at the facility in 2003 but couldn’t find it. A couple of weeks later, a deer Tommy Freiman had picked out died overnight after having been tranquilized. Freiman testified that he told Hinds Jones he no longer wanted a deer that was already dead. Freiman said Johnson began making phone calls to see who wanted the deer, describing the deer to people as if it had been shot. He got a taker on the second call. In separate testimony, Torri testified that Johnson called to say that his wounded deer had been found. In reality, it was the Freiman deer that had died from a tranquilizer overdose. Torri took the antlers.
•Fred Rowan, CEO and chairman of Carter’s Clothing Inc., testified that he shot three bucks in a 3- to 4-hour span with his son, Andy, who shot his buck within an hour in a 5- to 10-acre pen. They didn’t even stay the whole day, but Fred Rowan said he plunked down $20,000 for the biggest of his three deer, and $8,000 to $10,000 for the smaller two.
Many of these and other so-called “hunts” were videotaped by Rusty Camp for sale to the clients or to promote the facility to future clients. Camp said he made between 20 and 30 videos, of which five to 10 were fake.
“The hunts were pretty much done backward,” he told the court.
Camp said clients would shoot deer, then go back and re-enact for the cameras. He testified some clients had a hard time grasping the concept.
Not Sydney Meachum, a friend of Hinds Jones from Mississippi, who testified that he was invited by Bellar and Jones to help them make a video. Meachum said he learned when he got to Bellar’s Place that it was a “fake hunt.”
He then testified that he sat in a tree stand, fired an arrow and acted as if he had killed a deer. The deer was darted by a tranquilizer for the video. Meachum said that he’s left-handed but shot a right-handed bow for the video. He testified that fake blood was applied to the deer.
“I liked that,” Meachum said. “It made it look all real.” Real phony.
About as phony as the defense team’s efforts to portray Bellar as someone confused by the hunting rules and regulations of Indiana as they pertain to his pen-raised deer. That strategy took a blow Wednesday when Bellar’s Web site ( www.bellar.net ) was shown to the jurors. On the site was a statement advising clients “Since there is no exemption for hunting preserves in Indiana, we have to follow the states weapon seasons.”
The Web site that was accessed live in the courtroom Wednesday is no longer available. Someone pulled the plug.
All of this tells us that what went on at Bellar’s Place was a charade. It shouldn’t matter at this point what the jury decides in this case. It shouldn’t matter whether the jury blames Bellar or Jones or both, or neither.
The damage is done. Canned hunting has been exposed.
“It made it look all real.”
No, it was unreal.
Of course all this took place on a huge 1500 acre Pic N Shoot, LOL. A 1500 Pic N Shoot with a 5 acre shooting pen.
Right up until the first day of the trial all the little Pic N Shoot operators in Indiana were pointing to this very place as the shining example of what a Pic N Shoot operation should be.
Some still are.
01-10-2005, 04:30 PM
#83
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,846
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
Fencing in deer is not in their natural tendencies. Sure, they may never know the fence is there and are wild as can be. Yeah, they keep people out, but so do low fences.
TX and Georgetown and you high fence supporters, think of this: Yearling bucks disperse on average 3-5 mile from the area they were born in every spring-early summer. When you take that into consideration, it means that you're preventing the deer from dispersing properly like they do in nature. Therefore, it is not fair chase, and not ethical. You're basically saying that YOU own the deer and nobody else can shoot them. Just you. Sure, you can own the land and the hunting rights to it. But those deer are not YOURS. They can roam wherever possible, and should not be limited by something man made in order for a person or a group of persons to have to themselves. Slobbish and snobbish is what it is.
slayer
TX and Georgetown and you high fence supporters, think of this: Yearling bucks disperse on average 3-5 mile from the area they were born in every spring-early summer. When you take that into consideration, it means that you're preventing the deer from dispersing properly like they do in nature. Therefore, it is not fair chase, and not ethical. You're basically saying that YOU own the deer and nobody else can shoot them. Just you. Sure, you can own the land and the hunting rights to it. But those deer are not YOURS. They can roam wherever possible, and should not be limited by something man made in order for a person or a group of persons to have to themselves. Slobbish and snobbish is what it is.
slayer
01-10-2005, 06:03 PM
#84
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 339
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
you said it better than me deerslayer37.the problem is money the states could put a stop to it because wildlife is a natural resource not to be hijacked by someone.but most of the people who can afford to fence in these huge tracks of property have lots of money and lots of pull.
01-10-2005, 06:24 PM
#85
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rockaway,NJ.
Posts: 621
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
I must say Slayer has a point here. I was looking at it from why would a hunter want to hunt fenced deer point of view. I didn't see the deer are for me and my guests only side. A 4 foot fence lets other people know your property boundries but still lets the deer come and go as they please. An 8 foot fence does not let the deer do thier natural thing and stops them from moving to someone elses property. Thats not right! The deer are all of ours! You shouldn't have the right to keep them in and stop them from moving to where someone else has a shot at them. Good point slayer!
01-10-2005, 06:29 PM
#86
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin/Michigan
Posts: 9,679
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
Yeah, but how "free ranging" is a deer who lives on (lets say) crowded public land in one of the eastern states. A piece of public land that might have 50-100 hunters per square mile during deer season. A piece of public land that is surronded by houses and highways
rem7400 2
!
What's so fair about using a modern firearm??
Foolish? What's foolish is name calling! JMO
One thing that I don't get is most of the people that are High Fencers are so defensive.
Lets not forget the original post:
What is your take on hunting behind fences?(ex. like some of the Texas/Mexico hunts you see on TV) Does the size of the length fence make a difference on your opinion? Would you hunt behind a fence for deer? Is this really deer hunting when you can restrict the deer that are able to come in and go out?
Not trying to open a can of worms, just curious on some opinions.
Not trying to open a can of worms, just curious on some opinions.
01-10-2005, 09:47 PM
#87
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 638
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
Deerslayer_37:
Let me ask you this Deerslayer (and everybody else):
Lets take one of my ranches for example (MAP ranch). This particular ranch is mostly high fenced, all 6,600 acres. My neighbors place on the west, east, and north fence line is a 30,000 acre ranch. My neighbor on the south fence line is 13,000 acres. Who cares if I high fence my ranch. I'm not "stealing" or "robbing" anybody the opportunity to kill a deer. My neighbors are all bigger then me, they have there own deer running around, they dont need the deer on my place to jump the fence. One thing you guys might not realize is the fact that ALOT of the ranches in this area are HUGE. We dont have to depend on a deer jumping the fence from the neighbors inorder to kill a deer.
In this area they dont disperse that far. From studies down they disperse 1-3 miles. Now even if the yearling bucks did disperse 5 miles, so what, chances are they would still be somewhere on my ranch. And if any of the yearling bucks did disperse from my ranch, they would simply go to the neighbors place, who probably wouldnt want them anyway because that would screw up there ratios.
Another thing, lets say 30 yearling bucks get dispersed from there mothers and move off my ranch. Chances are that yearling bucks from the neighbors ranch are also getting dispersed and might end up on my ranch. So it kinda cancels itself out. You have x number of deer coming, and x number of deer going. In a way I'm possibly "cheating" myself out of deer perhaps even a future B&C class buck, by keeping deer from the neighbors from coming onto my ranch.
You're basically saying that YOU own the deer and nobody else can shoot them. Just you. Sure, you can own the land and the hunting rights to it. But those deer are not YOURS. They can roam wherever possible, and should not be limited by something man made in order for a person or a group of persons to have to themselves. Slobbish and snobbish is what it is.
Lets take one of my ranches for example (MAP ranch). This particular ranch is mostly high fenced, all 6,600 acres. My neighbors place on the west, east, and north fence line is a 30,000 acre ranch. My neighbor on the south fence line is 13,000 acres. Who cares if I high fence my ranch. I'm not "stealing" or "robbing" anybody the opportunity to kill a deer. My neighbors are all bigger then me, they have there own deer running around, they dont need the deer on my place to jump the fence. One thing you guys might not realize is the fact that ALOT of the ranches in this area are HUGE. We dont have to depend on a deer jumping the fence from the neighbors inorder to kill a deer.
Yearling bucks disperse on average 3-5 mile from the area they were born in every spring-early summer.
Another thing, lets say 30 yearling bucks get dispersed from there mothers and move off my ranch. Chances are that yearling bucks from the neighbors ranch are also getting dispersed and might end up on my ranch. So it kinda cancels itself out. You have x number of deer coming, and x number of deer going. In a way I'm possibly "cheating" myself out of deer perhaps even a future B&C class buck, by keeping deer from the neighbors from coming onto my ranch.
01-11-2005, 08:20 AM
#89
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: summerville sc USA
Posts: 76
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
Trying to have a discussion with you anti fencers is like arguing with antihunters. Subsitute the words "hunting behind fences" with "hunting" and you sound the same as the antihunters. No room for compromise with the high fencers, no consideration for very large tracts of land where the owner is managing and improving herd health and genetics. You antihunters( I'm sorry, antifencers) get off track in this discussion and start talking about canned hunts, these are two distinctly different topics and the only common denominator is fencing so that's good enough for you guys. You gladly twist the conversation to make your point, there is no reasoning with you antihunters(I'm sorry, anti fencers. I keep getting you guys confused)
You guys have mentioned several times about the cost of hunting these fenced areas, as if this is germaine to the conversation regards to high fencing. The cost to hunt factor has nothing to do with this conversation, just another anti______(you fill in the blank) tactic to obfuscate and confuse. If you have a problem with the cost to hunt that should include any hunt that cost more than the cost of state issued license, gas for the truck and a box of shells. You see, the moment you join a club, or book a hunt out of state or a guided hunt, you are paying more to hunt than someone else might be paying to hunt. What is the dollar amount that it becomes "snobbish"?Who says it's $1000, $2000 or $10,000. What gives you the right to determine if I'm being "snobbish" because I can afford to go on hunts that cost $______.(fill in the blank)
This really comes down to ethics and as I have said before, I hate "ethics threads" because we are not all the same and some people( antifencers) think their ethics are superior to others. The fact that it's legal doesn't seem to matter to the antis!!
You guys have mentioned several times about the cost of hunting these fenced areas, as if this is germaine to the conversation regards to high fencing. The cost to hunt factor has nothing to do with this conversation, just another anti______(you fill in the blank) tactic to obfuscate and confuse. If you have a problem with the cost to hunt that should include any hunt that cost more than the cost of state issued license, gas for the truck and a box of shells. You see, the moment you join a club, or book a hunt out of state or a guided hunt, you are paying more to hunt than someone else might be paying to hunt. What is the dollar amount that it becomes "snobbish"?Who says it's $1000, $2000 or $10,000. What gives you the right to determine if I'm being "snobbish" because I can afford to go on hunts that cost $______.(fill in the blank)
This really comes down to ethics and as I have said before, I hate "ethics threads" because we are not all the same and some people( antifencers) think their ethics are superior to others. The fact that it's legal doesn't seem to matter to the antis!!
01-11-2005, 10:16 AM
#90
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 866
RE: Deer Hunting Behind Fences
ORIGINAL: rem7400 2
Trying to have a discussion with you anti fencers is like arguing with antihunters. Subsitute the words "hunting behind fences" with "hunting" and you sound the same as the antihunters. No room for compromise with the high fencers, antis!!
Trying to have a discussion with you anti fencers is like arguing with antihunters. Subsitute the words "hunting behind fences" with "hunting" and you sound the same as the antihunters. No room for compromise with the high fencers, antis!!
Nope, I'm not going to help you talk over your own conciense.
You KNOW THE TRUTH or you wouldn't keep asking the question in a quest for the answer you can live with.