RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

And if you wanna use a bb gun go shoot field mice!

WE DO! At my hunting cabin, several times a year we get together and have an old fashioned mouse shoot using bb guns although the bb on mice is about like using a softball sized round for deer it does the job, leaves an adequate blood trail and results in few lost or wounded animals!
A word of caution though, you can shoot your eye out with those things!

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

do you have to ask that question i know there are alot of people out there that have done and will tell you they've killed more with a 22 than anything else you know who you are but you owe it to the animal to make darn sure you have a rifle that will cleanly take that animal its a terrible feeling to wound one and not find it (buck or doe) so i say absolutely not but of course thats an opinon and we all have one right

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

I bet if Hornady comes out with an SST bonded bullet for .223 it will kill deer. The 117 grain 25-06 thumps them. I just got a .243 and I can't wait to try the 95 grain SST bonded bullets. I can't believe 22 grains would make all that much difference.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

the .22 rimfire is the poacher favorite pick. they will lay a deer out like a rock. if you cannot kill a deer with a .22 centerfire you should not be in the woods. they only thing a bigger caliber does is give the guy that cannot shoot more room for his error.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Um yeah, what ever skippy. :eek:


And if you can't slip up and stab deer in the ribs with a hand sharpened stick then you also shouldn't be in the woods. See how easy it is to make dumb@$$ comments on the internet.

Yeah, that and it gives you a certainty of an exit hole, a blood trail, a larger grain weight bullet more suitable for non-varmit game, a round that actually still has more power at 200 yards than the muzzle energy of a red ryder BB-gun, a caliber that's legal in all 50 states, penetration that won't deflect on bone or blow up on shoulder blades, and a better ballistic coefficent.

But don't fret you only left out 7 things it does better.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Larry ,

I think the common misconception here is the difference between a .22 centerfire and the .22 rimfire (long rifle). I believe the majority here are thinking of the rimfire , which is no doubt a very unethical (and illegal in my state) choice for deer.

Oh and by the way , I'll get much better penetration from my bow than you'll get from any of your .22 centerfire rounds on deer![8D]

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

now i know each and evryone of us has had to track a deer after the shot. not all go down right away with big rifles so none of us should be in the woods then. be fare to the game your hunting and dont make it harder on the animal. i have harvested deer that have been shot from the roads with .22's and they are all infected and injured. not a smart way to hunt if ya ask me but then again i guess im an error hunter

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

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RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

I'm with you 100%. I've killed a bunch with a .222 just like you explained, quick and on the spot. "Experience over hear-say any day."

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

gorse you make a lot of sense and it's all true what you say except the part about energy, energy does nothing, it doesnt kill, it doesnt create wound channels, it doesnt expand bullets, its a theory, it's mathamtical equasion and depending on who's energy theory you use you come up with two different numbers. Einstiens theory or newtons, two different formulas that come up with two different numbers, which means nothing really. Wound channels are what kills and a pass through is a bigger wound channel. bigger bullets also leave bigger wound channels, but so do small bullets at high velocity , they just dont penetrate as well as bigger heavier bullets. however were talking a whiteatail deer here which is rarely wider than say 18 inches and does not offer much resistance in stopping a bullet when shot in the vitals. There is no way a little 'ol deer rib is gonna stop a .22 bullet traveling at or over 3500 fps. The .22 centerfires are just as poisonous to deer as any other caliber. how can 130 gr bullet be adequate for a 1000 + lb animal but a 50 gr not be for a 150 lb animal.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

i see alot of this guys read like they shoot. i knew they would not catch the two differant works. read error being rimfire vs centerfire. .223 will do the job anyday. man you guys are easy to stir up.[:'(]

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

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RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Yes gorse energy is a theory. Here is some copy and pasting. You'll see that einstein and newton did in fact have two different theory's for energy.




The Kinetic Energy Theory:

Energy is defined as the ability to do work. The energy of an object in motion is called kinetic energy (KE) and is expressed in foot-pounds. It is not measured directly, but is calculated from the bullet's mass and velocity. The basic formula for bullet energy is:

KE = (m * v²) * ½: Where; m is the mass of the bullet, v is the velocity.

Mass and weight are not the same. To get the results to come out correctly in the English unit of energy, the foot-pound, the following formula is used. It contains the necessary conversions into English units:

KE (in foot-pound) = bullet weight (in grains) * velocity² ÷ 450400.

(If you recall from "Math Definitions" to get 450400 we multiply in the denominator the acceleration of gravity, which is 32.1734ft/sec², by the conversion from grains to pounds, which is 7000, and by the 2 in the above formula, this comes out to be 450427.6 but the scientific community uses 450400 and so will we).

Now, let's work an example, say were shooting a 185-grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2530 fps.

KE = (v² ÷ 450400) * m
KE = (2530² ÷ 450400) * 185
KE = (6400900 ÷ 450400) * 185
KE = 14.2115896980462 * 185
KE = 2629.14409413854
KE ~ 2629 foot-pounds

Now, let us see what we get if we use the same example with the chart above: look for 2500, then read across to 30, you should get 14.20. Now, multiply that number by 185 and we get 2627 foot-pounds, pretty close, just 2 foot-pounds off I think we can live with that. The above-described method is the one used by the late Charles Newton.

If we know the kinetic energy and the velocity we can find the weight of the bullet by changing the formula to look like:

m = KE * 450400 ÷ v²
m = 2629 * 450400 ÷ 2530²
m = 1184101600 ÷ 6400900
m = 184.989860800825 or ~ 185 grains.

On the same thought, if we know the kinetic energy and the weight we can find the velocity of the bullet by changing the formula to look like:

v² = KE * 450400 ÷ m
(OR)
v = the square root of (KE * 450400 ÷ m)
v = the square root of (2629 * 450400 ÷ 185)
v = the square root of (1184101600 ÷ 185)
v = the square root of (6400549.18918919)
v = 2529.93066885027 or ~ 2530 fps.

For relatively slow moving objects, objects well below the speed of light, Newton’s third law of motion, that deals with kinetic energy, is normally used in calculations whereas Einstein’s equation of energy is used for velocities close to the speed of light. Not because Newton’s equation is correct for low velocities but because it is far easier to use than Einstein’s equation. But as we can see from the example above a 185-grain bullet moving at 2530 fps is suppose to generate approximately 2629 foot-pounds of kinetic energy, energy of an object in motion. For curiosity let’s see what Einstein’s equation of energy has to say to this:

KE = (m * c2) - (mo * c2)

where m is the mass of the object in motion, mo is the mass of the object at rest, and c is the speed of light. We would need to find the mass of our 185-grain bullet traveling at 2530 fps and that number is 185.00000000061202800418747854534-grains, and the speed of light in feet is 983571056.688 fps.

KE = [(m * c2) - (mo * c2)] ÷ 450400
KE = [(185.00000000061202800418747854534 * 983571056.6882) - (185 * 983571056.6882)] ÷ 450400
KE = [(185.00000000061202800418747854534 * 967412023554348909.529344) - (185 * 967412023554348909.529344)] ÷ 450400
KE = [178971224358146631512.9315781475 - 178971224357554548262.92864] ÷ 450400
KE = 592083250.00293814750051965679658 ÷ 450400
KE = 1314.572047075795 ~ 1315 ft-lbs
KE ~ 1315 ft-lbs


Einstein’s equation shows more than a 50% reduction over Newton’s third law of motion in the bullet’s true kinetic energy. The kinetic energy of 1315 ft-lbs is easier for the layperson to believe but still hard to accept.

To a lot of lay people the term foot-pound is misleading. The layperson thinks the term, for example, 2174 foot-pounds of energy of a bullet means that the bullet is able to lift or move a 2174-pound object a distance of one foot or a one-pound object a distance of 2174 feet. It also seems that a time interval is missing in the results of both equation. If a time interval is part of the foot-pounds then as the time interval is allowed to get shorter that the energy that is imparted is also smaller. But neither of these is correct. In the first case, the wording of foot-pounds is more kin to the application of leverage. In this case the energy of 2174 pounds is applied to a leverage that is one foot long. And in the second case the time variable in both equation has, mathematically, been canceled out. The total amount of energy is not dependant upon the amount of time the force is applied.

The energy required to move an object at rest to a specific velocity or change the object’s direction to a specific velocity can be calculated. But the energy cannot be calculated of the object at rest if the velocity or the resistance is unknown. But the energy required to move, say a metal silhouette, can be calculated by its mass and the maximum velocity it achieves. Thus, the amount of energy that is loss between the total kinetic energy of the bullet minus the required energy to move the metal silhouette. Likewise, the energy of the ground resistance, at the point of the bullet’s impact, can be calculated by how deep the bullet penetrates the ground. The amount of kinetic energy of a little bullet may sound large but likewise the total energy of an object to overcome its inertia and the resistance to surface interface is also large.

The energy of objects in motion, kinetic energy, makes sense to me but I also know that it does not make sense to a lot of other people. I may understand the subject of kinetic energy and its significance but there are many answers to this complex topic of “Bullet Energy” that has a lot of people wondering what is the answer? So I do not present this material as an answer but merely as food for thought.


Now what ya got ta say mister smarty pants ?

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

and heres the link

http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/ballistics/bulletenergy.html

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

just say no

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

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RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Wow, you guys are really into this. Where .22 centerfire is legal, it is an ethical decision. No doubt .223 can kill deer. Are you good enough to do this or are you having some get away. I know I used to have some deer get away with 30-06, now I don't but I don't shoot at as many deer. I use a single shot 25-06 now mostly. If you are willing to wait for proper shot placement, probably anything will work ok. Personally I would rather use at least a .243. A bigger caliber gives you more certainty but is no substitute for proper shot placement. Bullet construction is also a factor. I hunted for awhile with a .44 mag revolver and the results were disapointing I gave it up. But that was before there were these new copper bullets with mechanical hollowpoints. I would probably have better results now.

I think if hornady releases a .223 or 22-250 in SST interlock it would kill pretty well. There are probably decent bullets already, especially when you get over 50 grains. Part of the poor performance has to be related to people using varmint bullets in .223/22-250 on deer. They are not designed to kill these animals although it is possible to kill a deer with them. Still, there are fewer bullets designed to kill deer in .22 cal than in .243 and up.

Interestingly, here in WV ANY centerfire rifle is legal for deer. I guess a .17 centerfire would be legal too. But I would not go under .243 despite how the law reads. It is just a personal choice, I hate seeing a deer get away and I want to have a good advantage along with waiting for a good shot. Good bullets designed to kill deer and at least a .243.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Duhh . I said I did. To bad you didnt read it. It clearly talks about the different THEORY'S of energy. You said newton and einstein's energy formula were the same and I just proved to you they are not , I think your the one that slept in physics class. cant admit your wrong, I'll say it for you "your wrong".
Ever here of einsteins THEORYof relativity ? Duh !
Energy is a theory.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

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RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

I Never said the .22 centerfire had more killing potential, I said I also said I never said a .22 centerfire is better, on relatively small game like a deer or antelope you will not see a difference in killing power. they both will kill with great results.
I told you I agreed with everything you said except the energy part. Energy, TKO, bullet momentum, stopping power, etc etc. are all theory's and are a complete farse they have no real face value on killing.
Wound channels are what kill, period. Ive, beaten this horse enough. Knives, arrows, and hand guns have no energy to speak of and they all kill. Why ? WOUND CHANNELS The destruction and disruption of tissue, hemoraging , loss of blood pressure, bleeding etc.

Gorse
Gorse
You boldly claim one thing and then turn around and say something else. So which is it ? Even scholars dont even know which THEORY is right.

Gorse
Gorse
Aint that the pot calling the kettle black.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

The big problem with the 22 centerfires is that even the 60 grain bullets have a sectional density of only 171. That is not really enough to hang together and penetrate. To much expansion for reliable penetration. I have taken deer with the 60 grain Partition which because of its constuction, has the ability to perform beyond the average 22 centerfire bullet. I would use a 22 centerfire sparingly with the Barnes X bullet, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw or Nosler partition only.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Thank you. Well and concisely said. No one is saying that 22 center fire cartridges can't kill deer but their rapid and sometimes explosive expansion on impact make them highly unreliable when it comes to penetration. They were not intended for large game animals and that is why many states have banned their use for deer sized animals.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Fanatic do you realize how foolish I could make you look by stating that you can get better penetration from your bow than I can get from any .22 centerfire round!
If you believe that,I have some prime ocean front property in WV that I will sell to you.

Larry, Remember: fences and pens = SLOBS!

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Give it your best shot Larry!;) I'm not just babbling. Theres been more than one study to prove this. It included a 5lb bucket of sand and many different calibers against a heavy kinetic energy setup bow and the bow won hands down every time.
Dont believe me? Pop on in the Technical forum and ask anyone to post a link.;)

I dont have time to search for it at the moment.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

bowfanatic i can tell that you have never shot .223 with a copper jacket. i don't believe you have any idea what they are capable of. [:'(]

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

I also bow hunt and I believe that a .22 centerfire will have better penetration than a bow. Shoot a deer in the shoulder with a bow and you will not get a pass through. Do the same with a .22 centerfire using a good bullet and it will blow through both shoulders. I know because I have done it personnally. I have read tests that showed a .220 swift pierce steel that a 30-06 was unable to do. But then see gel tests that show the 30-06 to have more penetration. Go figure ?

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Really?

I've done it myself , and I've seen it done plenty of times with high kinetic energy setups. I was shooting aluminum arrows at the time producing 73ftlbs of kinetic energy.

You may be correct on the "copper jacket" round. The tests weren't done with armour piercing rounds.:D

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

I doubt you actually hit the shoulder bone.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

to put it simple , i shot a deer with a 22-250 this past firday , shot it in the head , my 55 grain nosler ballistic tip went the whole way through the head , follwed the spine down , and went into the chest , blowing the heart out. The deer dropped without a kick , also that day , i finished off a deer for my buddy with the gun , and almost blew the head entirely off with a shot to the high neck.

Although it works , i wouldnt use it as my gun of choice for a 300 pound saskatuwan buck. but for doe hunting or jsut a nice versitile caliber for a kid to use , a 22-250 works like a charm.

Also i was shooting it out of a thompson center encore 24 inch bull barrel . Did the job for me!

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

I stand corrected![&:] I was talking to my buddy about the test with the 5lb bucket of sand and the different calibers of guns -vs- a high kinetic energy producing bow. As he recalls the test was done with bigger calibers and heavy grain bullets. I know the fellas in the technical forum could probably explain it in detail.
Anyway , I'd still choose my bow over any .22 caliber centerfire for deer. Not that they dont work , I've watched my brother down plenty of whitetails with his AR15 .223 , I just love my bow.:D

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Fanatic I think the last few post pretty much say what Iwas going to on penetration.
I have a .220 swift and have shot it at the following items.

Using .55 grain open point bullets.

Shot thru 3/8 inch plate steel,hole looked lie it was made with a plasma torch.
Shot thru 5 2x6 blocks back to back,blowing last two in half.

Shot thru 55 gallon drum of water with lid,bursted seam and blew 3 inch hole out the back side,

4 vertical shots on a foam lifesize deer bow target that arrows will not penetrate thru and blew it in half.

Shot 10 watermellons lined up in a row and turned them all to soup.

Shot thru a 6inch locust fence post.

I cannot believe any bow would have that much penetration!

And yes I have shot many deer with it, most shots do not pass thru due to the bullets I use,but the open nosed rounds will blow a hole out the other side the size of a playing card.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

This is what I think is going on. You could shoot certain bullets through that stuff but some would blow up. I think the .22 cal bullets got a bad rap because people were using varmint bullets to shoot deer. Bullets have become so much better, people are able to shoot elk with 117 or 120 grain 25-06 bonded bullets. 20 years ago that would have been stupid. But I think things have changed IF you use the proper bullet for the game. In 22, you need a bonded bullet or barnes or similar IMO. If you use a varmint round like the v-max you are asking for a lot of wounded deer unless you can hit them in the right place in the head every time.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Larry , can I put A1 steak sauce or even ketchup on that crow to make it taste better?:D See above post.


zrexpilot , there are plenty of bowhunters in the bowhunting forum who can vouge for the fact that a high KE producing bow can blow thru two shoulders on a deer. Yes shoulder bone!

Am I misinformed on something? That sounds like a long way for a ballistic tip to travel beyond impact before making a mess.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Thats hard to believe, I hang out in the bow forums and everyone says shooting a deer with a bow in the shoulders is a big NO NO!
My buddy just bought a Bow tech (latest greatest) and he didnt even get an exit wound ( much less a pass thorough) on a shoulder shot deer this year.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

My hunting buddy is also a taxidermist, his son shot a nice 2 1/2 yr old 8 point this Nov that had a 22 long rifle bullet laying undedr the edge of his ear that had split his ear at a early age and the hide had grown right over top of it with no ill effects on the deer. NO I WOULD SAY IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL TO USE A 22 cal Rifle on any big game, you sure can't use it in KY.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Yes, not only has bullet design come a long way but so has arrow and broadhead design!

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

There's a world of difference between a .22LR and a .22 centerfire. A .22LR is illegal in TX, where a centerfire is not.

I agree. I handload, so I have the advantage of picking different bullets for different applications. I bought some Barnes Triple Shock 53 gr., which are supposed to penetrate and mushroom while retaining most of their weight. I packed a box (about 12 inches deep) full of dirt. I shot at 150 yds. to see if those bullets would expand like they were supposed to. They penetrated almost completely through, with one just touching the cardboard on the opposite side. They mushroomed perfectly, retaining 100% of their weight. The varmint bullets only penetrated a couple of inches, fragmenting into tiny little pieces. The copper jacket was about all that could be identified. Varmint bullets are deadly in the neck, especially the thinner necks of doe. But for deer hunting, a good bullet makes all the difference in the world.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Does anyone make loaded ammo with the tripple shock in .223 and .243? Especially .223.

RE: 22 Cal To Shoot Deer
 

Not to my knowledge. That was one of the factors I took into consideration when deciding whether to start reloading or not. It seems that most ammo manufacturers currently think that .223 users only need match or varmint bullets. I think that the triple shocks hold a big advantage for predator hunting. A lot of times, I'll see coyotes coming to a call, but the broomweeds are so high I can only see their head. At first, I thought I could just drop my point of aim down and shoot through the broomweeds and hit them in the side. Doesn't work. The thin bullets spin so fast that they fly apart when they hit anything, even broomweeds. Fragments will knock hair off, but rarely kill the coyote. This forces me to aim for the head. With Triple Shocks, I won't have to do that anymore.