kotten

This year was by far the worst hunting season I could remember. I believe the state has to do something to change the hunting regulations. This is a copy of the letter I sent to the DEC. I would like all feedback both good & bad about the letter. I want to get an idea what most hunters are willing to change in the regulations so I can go to these supposed public meetings & speak out. I am going to be posting this on many other websites to get as many feedbacks as I can. Please give me some input. Here it is:


To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Ken Otten & I own 220 acres of land in Otsego County. I also have control over another 215 acres that border me. In total there are 5 people that hunt on 435 acres. I am an avid hunter & would like to see a healthy deer herd with opportunities for everyone to enjoy. I am a big fan of the way Pennsylvania has restructured their hunting opportunities. I believe NYS can be a leader in this way also, but now is the time to start. But before I begin, I would like to commend you on your re-thinking of the hunting opportunities for the state of New York. I like some of the new ideas & would like to input some of my own. I know the DEC is getting a lot of input from all over the state between hunters, biologists, task forces, farmers & from anyone else that has an opinion. This writing is of my story & my suggestions. Some of my ideas may be good & some bad, but you can take from it what you will. I’ve been trying to implement a management system on my land to grow bigger bucks & have a healthier herd. I've shot some nice bucks over the years, but since doing some spare time taxidermy work, I have seen what the potential could be for the deer in my area. Three years ago I stopped shooting young bucks in favor of Does. Last year I initiated food plots on my property along with those shooting practices & this is what the result was. Three years ago, we had about 35 to 40 deer on the land. This was a combination of bucks & Does that we saw in the fields during the summer & winter months. After the food plots were in, we had the same number of deer but only 2 bucks. They were a year and a half 5-pointer and a year and a half 6-pionter. They were there in the summer & stayed during the hunting season. Unfortunately, they were both shot by neighboring farms during the gun season. A two and a half 8-pointer came in and bred the does. We passed on shooting him to let him get bigger & he was there and alive until well after the season was over. Last year, we took 7 Does off the property. When the summer came, we still counted about the same number of deer (between 30 to 35) in the food plots. Of these there were 5 yearling bucks. One 6-pointer, three 4-pointers, & a spike. Throughout bow season we saw these bucks on a regular basis. Then what we believe was the 8-pointer we left last year returned & was breeding the Does. We saw him on a daily basis for about 2 weeks just prior to the gun season, then he left. As the gun season came in, the yearlings were still there but the 6-pointer had broken off both antlers and was barely legal as a buck & one of the 4-pointers had broken off one side. The broken horn 6-pointer stayed for the 1st week and then within a 24 hr timeframe left our property & was shot about 2 miles away. The other yearlings were also shot by neighboring farms. This past week we saw the spike breeding the Does. So far as of this writing, we shot 3 Does. One was a year and half Doe with 2 fawns. My problem with this scenario is that the state has procedures in place to control the Does but nothing to control the buck population. Each year, the new crop of bucks are being harvested & there is no carry over to let them get to an older age. It’s not a healthy herd when the year and a half spikes are doing the breeding. Unfortunately, I cannot control this. But the State can. I don’t have data to go on, but here’s what I think:

1. I think there should be antler restrictions of 3 or preferably 4 points to a side during the gun & muzzleloader seasons and possibly the archery season. This will let the little ones get a little older & force meat hunters to shoot Does to put meat in the freezer. This will increase the antler size & quantity of bucks while decreasing the herd for damage control. With an influx of larger bucks, the State can get more revenue out of the out of state license sales. Out of state residents would be more likely to come here if they thought they could get a trophy buck like in Illinois.
2. I’m not in favor of an Earn a buck program for NYS residents because I believe it would reduce the herd too much. I think it would work if you used the Earn a buck program for out of state residents. They would benefit by being able to take 2 deer with the one license while letting NYS residents get first chance at the bucks. This would bring in more out of state hunters while reducing the herd. The way the state has it now with the DMP permits can better control the Doe population.
3. Lower the big game hunting age to 13. At this age they are more inclined to take up the sport without being sidetracked by other social behaviors. I don’t believe there should be a special season for them, but they should be allowed to shoot any 1 deer of their choice without any restrictions. This should be done every year, as long as they have a junior license. This will get them hooked at an earlier age & keep them interested as long as they shoot something.
4. I don’t believe there should be an early muzzleloader season, even if it’s antler less only. I believe the early season shooting will spook the deer prior to the regular gun season. Also, from what I’ve been hearing around, a lot of people are talking that if there is an early muzzleloader season & they see a nice buck, they will shoot it & never report it. I think having people going into the woods with a firearm in the early season, is asking for trouble. What I would suggest is to reduce the regular gun season to 2 weeks with 3 weekends. Then implement a muzzleloader only season on the following week with all the regular season regulations & benefits carried over. You don’t have to have the regular season that long. Most of the deer are shot within the first week anyway. This would give the muzzleloaders their own week plus they could still use their unused DMP permits from the regular season. Also on this week the secondary rut would be on and their chances would be good to tag out on a good buck. By decreasing the cost of a muzzleloader license to $10, I believe you would get more state income by the increased number of sales. Hunters wouldn’t mind spending the extra money to extend their season.
5. I like the idea of opening the gun season on a Saturday & the bow season 2 weeks earlier. The only thing is that the period of the bow season between Oct. 1 & the 15th should be for antler less deer only. In this way the herd can be reduced & the bucks wouldn’t have bred them already. This period, as well as the rest of the early bow season, could be used to qualify for the Earn a buck program. This would give out of state residents a chance to fulfill their requirements early on. It would also increase the number of bow hunting sales.

This is how the season would work out in 2005:

Oct 1 – Oct 14 Early Archery (Antler less Deer only)
All Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Antler less only)
Non-Resident hunters can use for the Earn a buck program

Oct 15 – Nov 18 Early Archery (Either Sex) – with or without Antler restrictions?
All Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) – with or without restrictions?
Non Resident hunters can use for the Earn a buck program on Antler less Deer
Youth & Disabled Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Nov 19 – Dec 4 Regular Season (Antler Restrictions)
All resident Big Game license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
All resident Big Game license holders can take 1 Antler less deer with a DMP license
Non-Resident Big Game license holders can take 1 Antler less & 1 Buck with 3 or 4 points to a side (after the Earn a buck rules are fulfilled) – If the Antler less rule is fulfilled during Early Archery season, then only 1 Buck can be taken & no Doe
Youth & Disabled Big Game license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Dec 5 – Dec 11 Muzzleloader Season (Antler Restrictions)
All resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
All resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 Antler less deer with a DMP license if it is not used during the Regular Season
All Non-Resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
Youth & Disabled Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Dec 12 – Dec 18 Muzzleloader Season (continued) and Late Archery Season
All leftover tags are valid (Same rules apply from earlier seasons)

I hope some of this can be used to have a healthier Deer herd & to give the hunter’s of this state the opportunities and satisfaction they deserve. From what I have always been told is that the Deer belong to the State of New York & it falls upon you only to make these decisions. The buck herd needs to increase and there needs to be an age structure within it. Future generations along with my 2 sons are counting on you. Please do the right thing.

Thanking You,
Ken Otten

All opinions are welcome & no holding back.

OntElk

I'm not from New York but fancy myself a pretty good letter writer I thought i would give some comments more to the form than the subastance, which I guarantee can be just as important in getting someone to hear what you're saying.

If you get someone of authority to read that whole letter then my hats off to you. Don't get me wrong. I read the details about the bucks on your land and I also read with interest your proposals. My concern would be that whoever receives this at the DEC will just see a novel and not give your key points thier proper consideration. It's just too detailed and long winded.

As interesting as it was to read the details of your lands herd I would suggest condensing this down to just the basics. Offer detailed data ,as you already provided, if requested.

It appears you already sent it so I might suggest defintley going with a follow up letter asking for a specific response. Attach the original and re-send it. It might take a couple mailings to get them to take you seriously and read the whole thing carefully.

johnl

I have to agree while you have some very good points your letter is just way too long

primetimearcher

Your not going to get people to agree with shooting 10 points. I don't see any bucks that would qualify in a whole year of hunting.[:'(] You could get respectible people to shoot 6 point and bigger letting small 4pt grow. You can't do anything to drastic. I don't think that the season change would be bad though except that doe should have a longer season for 5 years so buck and doe ratio will be close. Ny should also check out what the cayots are doing to deer.[&:]

MACHINIST

Primetime is right about the antler restrictions being a bit much in my opinion.I like everything else you have suggested though,just to let you know you can use any leftover dmp's in the late season now.One thing that I thought of if they want a doe only deer season why dont they do it in early september so that they arent shooting does that are bred off,also the season in september would allow everything to calm down again before the regular season starts.
just my .02 cents

hunter60

I like what your saying. I would like to see antler restrictions also. I'm not sure about the early muzzleloader season or even a late season. I hunt all gun season with my muzzleloader. If people want to hunt with 1 they can hunt then.

atlasman

I see 2 problems with your letter.

First it is waaaaaaaay too long as stated already. No one will read that whole thing. I didn't.


Second is that you are trying to get the DEC to change STATEWIDE regulations just so they match YOUR likes and dislikes.

You have to see the big picture and realize that you are in a HUGE minority with your desires listed above. Simply put.........it's just not what your average Joe hunter wants.........and average Joe puts a lot more money into the hunting pot then anyone else.

Guys want to see more deer..........period. They don't care if it has 12 points or 4 points. They want to use their vacation time and have fun at a cabin while going out in the woods and actually seeing some deer. A couple deer on the pole and some great stories for the years ahead. That is all hunters really want. The average weekend warrior has neither the time nor the desire to spend half his life chasing down a mature buck. If one comes along then great, but they are happy enough to be able to whack a doe for the freezer and a couple guys a year are the lucky ones who get a buck and brag like it was skill and not luck. It's a simple thing to most guys out there. They are not hard core hunting maniacs like most of us on these boards.........they just want a realistic chance at getting a deer in the few days they get to hunt a year.


Here is something else.........how are you supposed to get a kid interested in hunting these days?? I have been on NY state lands over 15 days this year that I saw NOTHING. Not one single deer. How sad is that?? If I had a young kid with me he would be thinking I was nuts for wasting my time freezing my butt off staring at trees..........young guys don't get the whole experience right away.......they have to at least see something every once in awhile to keep their interest up.

Now tell them they can only shoot an 8 or 10 pointer??

That kid will be sitting in front of his Playstation instead of in a treestand for sure.


You can't even convince your own neighbors not to shoot the small bucks..........what makes you think the whole state is any different?

mdrbowler99

As a muzzleloader hunter,I wish that the late season were longer.$16 for a week is a little too much of a price.I hunt with a bow also,and would not mind passing smaller bucks to get some trophies around.The only problem is that bucks with bad rack genetics are breeding bad rack deer.I also feel that in more populated areas,archery season should be opened up instead of a bait and shoot program every year.I'm from Alden ,NY,and my wife works in Clarence and there are so many deer around there that can't be hunted but get killed by cars every year.I would like the oportunity to legally hunt these animals rather than have them slaughtered with a bait and shoot.

davidmor

Just a point of correction, his proposal said the junior license was either sex WITHOUT restrictions. I read that to mean antler restrictions.

I agree that this year was very tough but I think that there are other factors that come into play than hunting regulations. If it were just the regulations that made this year so tough, why wasn't last year just as hard. These rules have been around for a while now. There have been plenty of deer in the past years, but this year they all went away because of the rules? I don't think so. My personal thoughts are a combination of a very hard winter last year caused a lot of winter kill, a very wet spring/summer/fall changed their feeding habits, and the fields being so wet that the farmers had to wait until now in some cases to chop the corn giving the deer a different place to hide has made this year hard. I also believe that a pretty big percentage of hunters don't call in their harvest causing the DEC numbers to be wrong. I am a fan of the idea of antler restrictions but I don't like the idea of 8-10 point restrictions. That is too drastic. I would be all in favor of 6 pt. and bigger though. As far as early muzzleloader season goes, I have mixed feelings. I don't bow hunt so that part of me makes me say 'heck yeah! I all for early muzzleloader season", but I also would hate to be a bow hunter and have a bunch of guns going off in the middle of my season. I guess I fall more on the "no" side of this issue just out of respect for the bow hunters. My personal preference would be to do an early muzzleloader season the week preceding open season. That way the bow hunters get an un-interupted season without guns scaring the deer off, and the muzzleloader hunters get an early season before all the shotgunners get out there. Yeah the bow hunters lose a week but as it is now, the muzzleloaders get the shaft. (no pun intended!) I just don't understand the thinking of splitting up the bow season right in the middle to let muzzleloader hunters have a week. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

It's funny though, compared to where I used to hunt (public lands in CO) it is nice to actually see deer when I hunt! I went a lot of years without ever even seeing a deer let alone shooting one! To me even this year being as tough as it has been would have been a banner year only 5 years ago in CO!

kotten

Thanks to all who offered their opinions on this matter. For those of you who read this thread & didn’t offer any opinion, you should be ashamed. Those who don’t say anything before things change are the first ones to complain when they do. After getting feedback from this & many other sites, this is what has come up. There has been a positive feed back on antler restrictions & for lowering the youth age to hunt. Not many have liked the idea of an early muzzleloader season or for shortening the regular gun season. What I would suggest then is to incorporate both seasons into one where you can use your muzzleloader tag during the regular season. NYS does not have that in effect now. Some other interesting opinions & feed back have come up. The first one has to do with poaching. It seems that the state is rampart with it. A lot of hunters from all over the state are complaining about it, but none are doing any thing about it. They said that the DEC should do something about this. There is an easy solution for this: REPORT IT! If that doesn’t work, then call the state police & report that there is a trespasser with a firearm on your property. I find that this works better than calling the DEC & if the people get caught and word gets around, I don’t think you will have any more problems. At some point, people have to start taking action to protect what they want. The second thing is that some people say that if they buy a license it is their right to shoot whatever they want. The thing that they have to remember is that hunting, like driving, is a privilege and not a right. The idea of hunting is a management tool to control the deer population. The state owns the herd & it is up to the hunters to keep it a healthy one. Third, most are saying that the herd is too small & that too many does have been shot. I spoke to a biologist & he said that to maintain a healthy deer population there should be about 11 deer per square mile. On agricultural areas, he said about 16 deer per square mile would be sufficient. NYS has a land area of 47,379 square miles. Of this there are many city & urban areas where deer would not exist. If you do the math for 11 deer / sq. mile, the herd count for the state would be 521,169. For 16 / sq. mile it would be 758,064. Even if the state is correct with a deer population over 900,000, it is overpopulated. I think a lot of people are missing the point. The idea is to have a healthy herd for now & for future generations and not for everyone to shoot anything just to say that they got something. Let’s get rid of that “If it’s brown, it’s down” attitude. If it’s meat your after, do everyone a favor & shoot a doe. Thanks.