Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
12-09-2004, 04:12 AM
#44
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,476
RE: Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
ding ding ding!!!
Colin wins the debate.
You see it doesn't matter how fast the projectile is going....It doesn't matter (completely) how heavy the projectile is....It is the combination of the velocity, the construction of the projectile, it's penetration on the animal, and the resulting damage to the vital tissues in the animal (or human) that kills.
Case in point....my 21 yr old wheel bow....shoots slow, 29 " arrows (weight?) and I usually get complete pass throughs including blowing through ribs. The deer are defitnitely dead. The projectile killed them. The projectile was going damn slow by todays standards for bows.
I have a .243, and it is one of my favorite deer rifles and has accounted for many deer...but I don't load it to screaming velocities...just around 2850 fps.
I also have a 50 caliber 24" barreled CVA Frontier percussion cap blackpowder rifle shoting a ROUNDBALL (weight?) It has taken a few deer. They were definitely dead when I started field dressing them moments after being shot with a HEAVY, SLOW-MOVING projectile....soft projectile.
It's the correct combination of Velocity + Projectile construction + Projectile weight + placement
It is not anything vs anything ...Its several things in conjuction with each other.
Now go do your homework and clean your room.
Colin wins the debate.
You see it doesn't matter how fast the projectile is going....It doesn't matter (completely) how heavy the projectile is....It is the combination of the velocity, the construction of the projectile, it's penetration on the animal, and the resulting damage to the vital tissues in the animal (or human) that kills.
Case in point....my 21 yr old wheel bow....shoots slow, 29 " arrows (weight?) and I usually get complete pass throughs including blowing through ribs. The deer are defitnitely dead. The projectile killed them. The projectile was going damn slow by todays standards for bows.
I have a .243, and it is one of my favorite deer rifles and has accounted for many deer...but I don't load it to screaming velocities...just around 2850 fps.
I also have a 50 caliber 24" barreled CVA Frontier percussion cap blackpowder rifle shoting a ROUNDBALL (weight?) It has taken a few deer. They were definitely dead when I started field dressing them moments after being shot with a HEAVY, SLOW-MOVING projectile....soft projectile.
It's the correct combination of Velocity + Projectile construction + Projectile weight + placement
It is not anything vs anything ...Its several things in conjuction with each other.
Now go do your homework and clean your room.
12-09-2004, 07:00 AM
#45
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 173
RE: Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
Here is a scenerio that was put in front of a number of hunters in a popular hunting magazine a few years ago. Let's say you were invited to go on an Elk hunting trip with a friend. You would be hunting in heavy timber with shots no more than 75 yards. You are given a choice of a .22-250 with a 55 gr. spitzer boattail or a .45-70 using a 270 gr. round nosed bullet. Which would you choose and why? 100% of the hunters said that they would use the .45-70 (common sense). Then when most of them were asked why they chose that caliber/bullet combination, over 1/2 of them stated "more knockdown" or "more energy" from the larger bullet.
OK lets look at the ballistic on these 2 calibers: at 100 yards both projectiles deliver almost identical energy numbers. The thing you have to look at here is the fact that the 55 gr. bullet is traveling twice the speed of the larger bullet therefore delivering more energy per square inch due to the smaller impact area of the .22 caliber.
In this case neither speed nor energy kills but bullet construction is the key. The larger bullet with it's blunt design and heavier core/jacket combination is what creates a significant wound channel to effeciently lower the animals blood pressure causing trauma and immediate death.
Shot placement and matching the bullet to the game being hunted is also a major factor here.
I totally agree with 8mm/06 on this one.
OK lets look at the ballistic on these 2 calibers: at 100 yards both projectiles deliver almost identical energy numbers. The thing you have to look at here is the fact that the 55 gr. bullet is traveling twice the speed of the larger bullet therefore delivering more energy per square inch due to the smaller impact area of the .22 caliber.
In this case neither speed nor energy kills but bullet construction is the key. The larger bullet with it's blunt design and heavier core/jacket combination is what creates a significant wound channel to effeciently lower the animals blood pressure causing trauma and immediate death.
Shot placement and matching the bullet to the game being hunted is also a major factor here.
I totally agree with 8mm/06 on this one.
12-09-2004, 08:59 AM
#47
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 26
RE: Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
I sorta feel responsible for this debate, Now lets think about it in a way as to where you hunt. A light faster bullet will perform poorly in heavy dense woods like up in Maine or Nothern NH. A heavy bullet will be more stable traveling through brush. so to end this debate all bullets have their purpose and functionality ( thats why there are different calibers and weights and designs) depending what and where you are hunting. So I hope I didnt open another can of worms but made you realize there is no debate and that its all about prefrence.
12-09-2004, 10:29 AM
#48
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 618
RE: Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
8mm/06 is right back on page 2 of this debate. It's a combination of velocity and mass. You can't argue that it's just velocity, and that power doesn't exist, because you are wrong. Velocity and mass together great a FORCE, or power. One without the other leaves you with either a near massless object moving at extremely high velocity (but delivers no force), or a motionless mass (again, no force). I don't see what's so hard to grasp here folks.
12-09-2004, 10:32 AM
#49
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fenton, MI
Posts: 88
RE: Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
ORIGINAL: Twong-on
Never depend on ANY bullet to be stable traveling through brush. It's a crap shoot at best that will eventually end poorly in some regard.
A bullet and broadhead tipped arrow kill by two TOTALLY different mechanisms. They should not be compared as though they are NOT the same.
Browning.308 - consider selling your "man's gun" so you can buy yourself some maturity with the proceeds.
A heavy bullet will be more stable traveling through brush
A bullet and broadhead tipped arrow kill by two TOTALLY different mechanisms. They should not be compared as though they are NOT the same.
Browning.308 - consider selling your "man's gun" so you can buy yourself some maturity with the proceeds.
12-09-2004, 11:48 AM
#50
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,927
RE: Velocity verses Energy. (the debate)
Archery depends on cutting and bleeding. Bullets create shock and tissue damage. I haven't looked at the two wound webpages mentioned earlier, but I haven't seen any mention of this on this thread. Doesn't the speed affect the ability of the bullet to mushroom, thus allowing the tranfer of kinetic (or potential) energy to surrounding tissue? There are certain speeds that the bullet would fail to fully mushroom. Our discussion would depend on several variables, speed of bullet, type of bullet, type of target.
