BAR vs. A bolt
 

Thinking about buying a 30 06 BAR. I'm trying to find some info on ballistic comparisons between the 2 guns using identical ammo, proably 150 grain power points. I know the bar uses part of the burning gases to cycle another round but wonder how much of a power loss this contributes. Can't seem to find this info on the web. Is it significant enough to change trajectories and ME's ? Does anyone use both the auto and bolt ? Would like to know which is preferred and how well the auto does after a few rounds are fired. Thanks guys and gals for your time.:eek:

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

For the majority of hunters, it's really personal preference. I prefer bolt actions, however a guy in our club has a BAR 30-06 and he kills basically everything he tries to. I'm actually impressed with that gun as far as automatics go. It works like a champ. If you need real long range accuracy, it may not be the preferred choice. But as far as normal hunting ranges go (under 200 yds) I would say it should work just fine. I can't really comment on the ballistics of it compared to a bolt(although I doubt theres much difference), I just know it works well for him :)

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

The Ballistics that are affected between a Auto and a Bolt are null. A bolt will prove to be more accurate because the bullet is manually seated everytime. I have a BAR 7mm mag and love it. I would like to purchase a 243 WSSM A-Bolt.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

i like my a bolt. an auto definitely affects longer range shot accuracy.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Bullsh** I have a 30-06 BAR and I will shoot it against any big game rifle, bolt or not. My BAR shoots 0.43" groups at 100 yds from the bench with my deer loads, 150 gr ballistic tip clocking 2950 fps.That is better than a lot of bolt rifles out there. My buddy has one in .308 and it shoots as well using factory ammo. You give up nothing in a hunting rifle in a BAR. You would have to go into super accurate varmint rifles to see any difference.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

the biggest difference between is movable parts. both are very accurate. but w/ a-bolt you have less moving parts which gives you the advantage of not having a lock up or jam of ammo. I have both auto and a-bolt and use them both w/ no question. and have killed lots of deer w/ my .308 auto. thats why the military snipers use bolts . less chance of a foul up. but its your choice. good luck!!

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Hey Bigguy what load are you using in your Bar 30-06 ? I have two Bars and want to load 150's for them. Also would like to say who put the 200 yd limit on the Bar. Heck, I got a buck at 320 this year ! No problem at all to shoot a deer at 300 + with my Bar

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Hi cheeta264,

The pressure siphoned off to operate the action is negligible. The resultant velocity loss is usually less than 25-50 fps. In other words....less than the standard deviation of many loads. It will have no appreciable bearing on the trajectory!

And as to the accuracy issue brought up by some.....I think you already know that is not a decisive issue. There are many BARs out there....that will shoot circles around many bolts. Not to worry!

Good luck!

Dave

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

djkiller, you are right on the money. I have been a Law Enforcement sniper for 14 years and will confirm that virtually every L.E. and military sniper uses bolt action rifles. In fact almost all use the remington 700 action.

A bolt action rifle is more accurate and reliable period, end of story. There is no debate here.

I believe we are talking hunting rifles here and a BAR is an awesome choice for that purpose. It is quicker, however it is also heavier and more prone to malfunction. Chances are your first shot is the one that will matter and after that most shots after that are hail marys.

For the guy that consistanly shoots 1/2 or less groups at 100 yds. Keep that rifle because that certainly is very, very rare and certainly the exception vs. the rule. A lot of professional snipers don't shoot that consistant with match grade ammo, Leupold optics, and Krieger barrels. Actually the "deer load" ammo isn't even rated to be that accurate, don't take it from me, check with the manufactuer. Like I said if your are serious, don't ever sell that one, it's a one in a million BAR. I'm sure you also have Leupold or better optics on that rifle and are shooting from a vise. You should also start shooting competition because you will walk away with a boat load of trophys and you'd change alot of opinions after they saw those consistant groups.

Cybersniper

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Here is my load for my Bar. 150 gr Nosler ballistic tip,58 gr. IMR 4350,OAL 3.296" WW brass,WW LR primer, this gives me 2950 Fps and I have shot .43" groups (3 shot) from the bench.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

I have a hunting partner that has a 6 year old BAR. It is a great gun, accurate(although not sub 1/2" accurate) and has taken many deer. But, he found out that the BAR can break as his gun sat in the gunsmiths shop for the last two weeks of firearms season. Seems something broke causing the gun not to eject. I realise a bolt rifle can malfunction too, but it is much less likely to do so.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

My father has a Browning BAR in 7mm magnum. I can't speak for it as a bench rest competition gun but it is more accurate than you could ever need a rifle to be for hunting purposes. If you miss a deer even at 350 yards with a BAR, I promise you it will be operator error not equipment malfunction.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

I keep a reloading/shooting binder for all my guns with my shot targets and crony results . Just to see how well my Bar did as compared to my other guns here are the results. Note these are my best groups on a good day at the range, I use front and rear sand bags and shoot from a sturdy bench, no gun vise ,targets at 100 yds 3 shot groups.
.223 Rem 700 BDL bolt,with a 6x24 tasco =0.75"
6.5x55 Mod 96 custom mauser bolt with a 3x9 Bushnell = 0.75"
30-30 Marlin 336 lever with a 4x Tasco =1 3/8"
.300 Win m70 bolt with a 4x12 Lepould =0.50"
444 Marlin lever with a 1.5x4.5 Bushnell=0.52"
all above are handloads.
7.62x39 m56 SKS semi with a 4x chinese scope =1.25"
with surpluss ammo.
It appears that my BAR in 30-06 is my best shooting gun at 0.43"
I never really compared.I reload and try to get the best I can out of each gun. I bought my BAR Grade 4 in 1971 and haven't had any problems with it, still shoots great.
The moral is a BAR will shoot as good as any hunting gun out there if you do your part.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Those are impressive groups Big Guy but my preference is not to use my best groups to evaluate the accuracy of a gun.Instead I shoot several groups and take the average as it provides a better representation of what you can normally expect from both the gun and the load.I have seen people at the range bragging about their 1/4" gun and waving around a target with a 1/4" group, but when they tried to duplicate it their average group was double or triple the size.After all the bragging they couldn't back up their claims.My most accurate hunting rifle has shot a few groups under 1/4" but it averages 1/2".As such when someone asks how accurate this gun is I tell them it is a 1/2" gun.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

I agree with you 100 % these are my best groups. under ideal conditions. I have yet to have any game animal wait until I have set up a bench , sandbags etc. control my breathingand heart beat, site and squeeze off a shot. My point was that the BAR as a hunting rifle of big game surrenders very little in the way of accuracy to any hunting bolt rifle. I can't seem to get my pictures to post properly. If you want to see my target in the last post. right click on the red "x", highlight the entire url and copy it. then paste it into the address bar. that should work.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Both are fine guns and quite frankly provide better groups than most guys shooting them. However the fact of less moving parts the Abolt would be my choice. Also (I am not saying this you or any other BAR owners that posted) but some use pumps, auto's, etc for fast follow up shots which really makes me scratch my head as quite often your first shot is your best so make it count.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

The first shot is almost always your best chance.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

The first shot is the most importent, but instead of a follow up shot I like the bar because it allows me a quick second shot on another animal. Quite often moose and deer travel in groups,(we can party hunt for big game here) the bar allows me to take two "first shots" quickly. For the ultimate in non moving parts you can't beat a single shot, I don't see to many in the field. Bolts,levers,pumps, and semis are the hunters choices probably in that order.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here, to each his own,I say. But, I just don't understand why every one is so hot on the first shot your best shot. Maybe out of a tree stand, perhaps we all should use singe shots ?

Here is the deal, now be honest have you evr shot at a running buck in the timber or going across a field or about to go on some other property ? That first shot doesn't always go where we want, darn deer dodges behind a tree when you pull the trigger, a 100 things can go wrong ! so a second or third quick shot may be necessary. I once asked a seasoned hunter why he carried an semi- he said oft times if you miss the deer willl stop and get it's bearings before dashing off again and you have one in the spout ready to go. Any other type of action the deer will hear and bolt before you get the action cycled. I've seen it dozens of times. Now don't get me wrong, I use lots of bolts and I'm quick with one. But in the field I take my semi- Last year my brother in law had a huge buck run under his stand in heavy timber near a field edge, he shot four times, when the buck hit the field edge he hesitated for a moment and his last shot did the trick ! I have jumped many bucks in timber when caring a bolt rifle and never had a chance, just watched them bound through the timber.;)

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

I have to say two things in respose to this post.The first being that if it takes a person four shots to get his animal he needs more shooting practise not faster follow up shots.Unlucky events can occur to any of us that could cause a missed first shot but missing three shots is not bad luck it is simply poor shooting.If you jumped bucks in the timber but had no chance for a shot a faster follow up shot is not a factor.If you have missed many shots then shooting practise is again in order.

I am not saying that I don't miss shots myself because I have missed my share over the last 30 some years.When I did miss I checked over my rifle ,accepted the fact that I screwed up and put in some more practise time.When it comes to shooting accuracy quantity will never replace quality..

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

At the risk of offending someone and starting an argument I'll throw my two cents into this.

I will unequivocally state that it is a rare "medium or big game" hunt that cannot be brought to a satisfactory conclusion with any rifle capable of 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yards. Is better accuracy nice? Heck yes, but is it necessary.....seldom. (I know, I'm going to get about umpteen responses that "illustrate" how only a rifle capable of shooting 500 yards into less the 1 MOA and less than 10" of drop would have worked. And I'm prepared to hear it!)

But the truth of the matter is......we do not normally need "benchrest" accuracy, or even "tactical sniper" accuracy to successfully complete probably better than 90% of all hunts! And another truth is this.....any action type can be used successfully.....if the person using it knows both the rifle's limitations.....and the "shooter's limitations". And then the shooter has both the maturity and discipline....to stay within those limits. (And the preponderance of my rifles are bolt action....so please.....don't try to "convert" me to "something more accurate".

The BAR is a fine hunting rifle. And no one need apologize for using one!

Dave

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

It would be hard to state that better and even harder to dispute it.The unfortunate part is that many shooters do not know or are not honest with themselves about either reguardless of the type of action used.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Hi stubblejumper,

We are indeed in agreement on that!:)

Dave

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

The reason for concentrating on bechrest accuracy is to know what ammo and conditions your firearm is suited for. We all know that in the fiels the condistions are different and every error is magnified. That is the reason that you practice and try to get as tight as a group as possible at the range. If you start out with the "2 inch at 100 is close enough" you are setting yourself up for failure because when you add stress, increased heart rate, no rest, etc.. Your two inches error will be increased to four, six, or eight inches at 100. Now we are getting into some proplem areas. Especially with the hunter who "unloads" on a deer running across a field. Sometimes semi autos cause us to "spray and pray". Some of the best shots are taken from the guys shooting muzzle loaders and single shots because they know they have to make that one shot count.
So to make the long story short I disagree and think that if you want to make quick humane kills you do need the best accuracy possible.
Even though I think big guy is on the right track with logging his info, so he knows what works best in his particular firearm.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Hi cybersniper,

We both know....and acknowledge.....that there are people in the woods that probably don't belong there. Now allowing for that, and also allowing that these same people may have any type of firearm, let's concentrate the balance of the discussion on "hunter's with some ethics....and the maturity to exercise it properly".

A person that walks into the woods with a rifle capable of putting all of its shots into say 2" at 100 yards is not necessarily setting themselves up for failure. When, for instance, they know that in over thirty years of deer hunting the longest "rifle shot" they have taken on any whitetail is 95 yards. (Especially when they can't see over 100 yards from their stand.) Now, if that same hunter, using that same rifle positioned themselves on the edge of a field....with shots of over 300 yards a possibility. I'd agree with your premise wholeheartedly. But for us to presume to know the circumstances of each hunter, each hunt, throughout the entire range of possibilities, is speculative at best.

Before you beat me up verbally let me expound. In over thiry years of whitetail hunting, with dozens upon dozens of tagged animals, the longest "rifle shot" whitetail I've ever taken was at 95 yards. (With a .356 Winchester, 200 grain factory load, while on stand in a wooded area.) My actual longest shot on whitetail was a little over 115 yards on a buck with BRI Sabot Slug in a 12 gauge while in a portable tree stand. (Both by the way were successful.) So under these circumstances....a 2" at 100 yard rifle.....is more than adequate.

Let me also say, I like an accurate rifle. And I've entered the woods with many rifles accurate of better than 1" at 100 yards over the years. I've spent many years of woodchuck hunting shooting at ranges over 400 yards frequently. And I've harvasted other species of big game at over 300 yards, (my actual longest shot on a live, previously unwounded, animal). So I am not arguing "against accuracy". I am only stating that for many hunters.....bench rest accuracy is not only not obtainable....but absolutely not necessary. (But the best accuracy you can wring out of your rifle is what you should strive for. It instills confidence, provides practice, familiarity, and allows for the possibility of a long shot if circumstances require.) I only said that each hunter, guided by their circumstances and experience, can decide if they can indeed get by with a 2" group at 100 yards.....or if more accuracy is necessary.

I don't think we disagree on the merits of accuracy. Only maybe on the degree required by individual hunters.....and their circumstances.

Dave

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

I've shot a number of a-bolts and bars. I've liked them all. If I had to summarize, I'd guess that on average, the BAR shot atleast as well as the a-bolts using factory fodder. I do think the a-bolts benefit from handloads. In the last two years, I've spent quite a bit of time with a bar in 7 mag, 30-06 and a 300 win mag. The 7 mag shot nearly every factory ammo tried into 11/2" at 100 yds, and half the loads would shoot 3 shot groups of 1". The 30-06 was very comparable. With the 300 win, I bought 6 different boxes of factory ammo in 180 grain weight. (I choose not to reload for autos). Hornady heavy magnum grouped about 3/4" and chronographed at 2985 (this was notably slower than the averaged velocity). Winchester ballistic silvertips regularly shoot 1" groups with velocity of 3050. I have a 2.5 X 8 variX III on this rifle. The gun was purchased for mule deer hunting in oaks and quakies where shots can be both short and quite long. It has also been used sucessfully on both elk and antelope out past 300 yds. Although the gun primarily is used as a backup to a 300 wby for deer hunting, in thick brushy country where jumping a big buck on the run is a likelihood, the semi auto action gets the nod(although I must add the gun heavier than I like). My goal with the gun was to have something for brush hunting that still had the accuracy and power to shoot across canyons 400+ yards. I've also used it for an odd elk and antelope hunt just to see how it and the loads performed. It has performed very well-with absolutely no malfunctions. It shoots notably more accurately and reliably than a remington 742 I chased whitetails with back east as a kid (although I have shot a cousin's 7400 that shoots very well). If I were limited to one gun (a terrifying thought), I probably would stick with a bolt action 300 or 340 wby. If most of my hunting was back east chasing whitetails, I'd still opt for the 300 or 7 mm for the odd long shot and the comfort knowing you had enough gun to shoot a once in a lifetime animal from any angle (this assumes you are using fairly heavy premium bullets). Browning rifles are well made--I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

How did you come to the conclusion that the BAR is more prone to malfunction? I know guys who bought them when the first came out and have still had no problems. They may require more cleaning, but as long as you keep them clean they will function flawlessly.....
As far as accuracy goes I don't think me and Big Guy01 are the only ones that get good accuracy from our BAR's. At 100 yds. I consistently get .75" groups and under.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Cheta, if you want a BAR get one. It is a fine huting rifle,I haven't seen a malfunction in mine since 1969 and it is plenty accurate for deer shooting to 350 yds which is a long way out there. Pick the rifle that is most comfortable for you and fits your hunting conditions. I've shot a lot of a-bolts and they are just fine. It's simply what you like. I would not limit my self to one rifle. When hunting in the wide open of South Dakota I use my .270 , in most places north, East or south of Missouri I use the Bar. or my BLR .358 for bear, moose elk etc. and of course a bolt rifle for varmits.

Stubble jumper I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was simple trying to say use the best too for the job. As to shooting ability I whole heartly agree with you about pratice but the best pratice is to get off the bench, after sighting in, and shoot in all field positions. I was a little offended at first about your reference to me as a bad shot. I'm not. I shoot every day and have a lot of field experience in all kinds of conditions. I shot my first deer 50 yrs ago in the Ozark hills with a boltaction 30-30.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

.358-My statement was that if your brother in law missed three shots before getting his deer on the fourth shot he needs more shooting practise.I still stand behind that statement.
You also said that you watched several deer run away in the timber without having a chance.You did not specify if you managed to get off shots at the deer or not hence my two part response.I replied that if you couldn't get a single shot off with a bolt action a semi auto would not have helped you.On the other hand if you had been regularly getting off shots but missing you only have your shooting to blame.Again I stand behind that statement.As I stated in my post everyone including myself misses game from time to time ,but when the misses become common you should work at improving your shooting accuracy instead of attempting to make up for misses by shooting more shots instead of shooting more accurate shots.As to a persons shooting ability-neither the amount of years that he has hunted or the number of animals that he has killed are reliable indications of his shooting skills.

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

nc_bowhunter, No one "came to the conclusion" Its a fact. There are less parts to malfunction. This doesn't mean that a auto will malfunction or is not accurate, it's just a fact that there is a greater possibility for malfunction and bolt rifles are in most cases more accurate. This is not a topic to debate, it's a fact. Ask any gunsmith out there.

We are talking about hunting rifles here and as I said in my earlier posts, the BAR is an awesome rifle for this purpose. I would buy one in a heart beat if it would be just for hunting. I am an accuracy freak because shooting high powered rifles is what I do for a living. In my line of work you will never see a military or LE sniper shooting a automatic rifle. That is just me, we are talking hunting here and absolute accuracy is desired but not required.

Cyber

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Hey .358, What kind of .358 do you have. My dad shoots one of those elephant guns. Ammo is not cheap..

Cyber

RE: BAR vs. A bolt
 

Cybersniper, actually I have 4 , two Browning Blr's, an 88 win.(rebored from .308) and a 99 savage. I hand load for mine. But, since browning has reintroduced the Cal. ammo might get cheaper. To get top performance though reloading is the only way to go.

The one I use the most is the Browning Blr. I have shot 17 black bear with the one rifle and many wild hogs. I use 53/748/.250 speer's @ 2350 for this purpose and never had a bear go more than 20 ft. most fall on the spot. Since I retired money is tight and I'm going to sell the others, people are calling alreadyand I can only hunt with one at a time.

I don't understand how people got the idea the .358 is a kicker, it isn't, about like a .308. .225 grn bullets are a good compromise for the guy who wants to use it on a variety of game and the 180's.220's and 200's really flatten deer, but two fifty yards is a pratical limit. Send me an e-mail sometime and I will send some pictures of bear's I've shot with this little rifle. Good hunting !