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Lost deer
shot a buck with a 50 cal muzzle loader about 50 yards Knocked him down after about 5 min tried to get up laid back down for about 5 min then got up and walked off. There was hair and blood where it was laying and found another spot of blood and that was it |
So what is your point, did you track him or did you just throw in the towel? If you didn't go further than the last blood spot you need to be looking now. They don't just fall down and die most times. If after 5 minutes he tried to get up why weren't you reloaded and give him another shot?
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Looked all day for him and can’t find anymore blood |
yeah why didn;t you shoot a second time??
have you thought about looking to see if there are anyone in your area with a deer tracking dog(that is if legal) be surprised how well a dog can track a deer! and there are clubs of these deer tracking dogs all over the USA when I hunt out of state(states legal) I actually keep numbers on hand in ever needed in advance, as never know, better to have options than loose a deer IMO but I;m a firm believer in taking a secon d shot if a deer TRIES to get up, ain;t worried about loosing a little meat, over loosing a whole deer? |
Ya should have shot again but I had already shot a pig and only took two bullets stupid move |
Find somebody with a blood tracking dog.
Try the local VDD guys or gals. Drahthaar.com JW |
Yep. Dog is the way to go
Also: learn from your mistakes and don't make them again. Next time have sufficient ammo. And shoot until the game is expired. We all mess up. What's important is what we do after the mistakes. -Jake |
Originally Posted by JW
(Post 4363881)
Find somebody with a blood tracking dog.
Try the local VDD guys or gals. Drahthaar.com JW |
Originally Posted by Bocajnala
(Post 4363882)
Yep. Dog is the way to go
Also: learn from your mistakes and don't make them again. Next time have sufficient ammo. And shoot until the game is expired. We all mess up. What's important is what we do after the mistakes. -Jake |
Originally Posted by Thom55
(Post 4363880)
Ya should have shot again but I had already shot a pig and only took two bullets stupid move |
Probably most, if not all of us have lost a deer. It happens.
What really hurts is you KNOW which direction it went and spend a couple hours looking that way and not find it. Then a week later your cousin tells you about the dead deer he can see from the road which is in the opposite direction of where you looked. He made a big circle and died about 75 yards from where I hit him. Cry. Oh, and I always bring extra shells - and now you probably will too. 😉 |
I have lost a few in my long hunting life and they always haunt me. My most recent was a similar situation as the OP. It was ML season and I had a standing broadside shot with a rest at slightly less than 100 yds. Took the shot and the deer dropped kicked a few times and stayed down in 6" deep green field grass seemingly dead. There were 2 of us and we had around 10 minutes of legal time so we just sat hoping for a double kill. I called the landowner and told him I had a deer down and he said he would come down and drag it out with his wheeler. After a quick 10 minutes nothing else came out into the field so we unloaded and climbed down the shooting shack ladder. We hit the ground just as we could see the wheeler lights come over the hill. We started to go towards where the deer was and suddenly it stood up and took off much to our amazement. Our guns were both uncapped and the wheelers headlights showed that deer racing for the swamp. 3 of us looked until around 11 that night and found only a little blood at the spot where it was and couldn't find anything else. I went back the next day and spent all day walking that swamp which was pretty thick and never found a trace of the deer. I kept an eye out for a few days and never saw any crows or ravens which would have found that deer if it died. No clue what happened but that one will stick in my memory banks for a while.
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Hit him too high. Probably clipped one of the bones that juts up from the spine. Hit one there and they drop to the shot but don't stay down. And only taking 2 bullets into the field when you're hunting is a very UNWISE move. Frankly that buck deserved better than running into you that day.
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I'm not saying this is you, but consider that you might need to stick to superior weapons (i.e. rifles) until you improve. This is my seventh year hunting. So far, it's been rifles only (except turkey, but I've yet to seal the deal).
Next year, I'm planning to buy a bow, but I absolutely will NOT hunt with it until I am confident of my ability to correctly judge and execute 100% kill shots - even if it takes me years to get there. Sure, even a "perfect shot" usually means the animal will run off (EVERY animal I've ever shot ran off), but a good clean kill shots means its not going to go far. I won't give you the "Big hole for better blood" lecture, because your .50 cal is obviously plenty big, but there is no way you made a good shot with that round and lost the deer. |
OP - What kind of bullet did you use?
Did you aim for the lungs or shoulder? What was the color and length of the deer hair on the ground? You might have hit him just below the spine and above the lung cavity --- Which is a non-fatal hit with a muzzleloader bullet. I imagine that the bullet passed though and exited the body. Whether he would eventually die of gangrene infection is a quandary. |
Originally Posted by Erno86
(Post 4364225)
OP - What kind of bullet did you use?
Did you aim for the lungs or shoulder? What was the color and length of the deer hair on the ground? You might have hit him just below the spine and above the lung cavity --- Which is a non-fatal hit with a muzzleloader bullet. I imagine that the bullet passed though and exited the body. Whether he would eventually die of gangrene infection is a quandary. |
:biggrin::biggrin:
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I have been around for a while and killed many... many wild game animals and birds. Sad to say there have been a few that got away. I always prepared to the best of my ability and used top shelf equipment but killing isn't a perfect science. Sometimes the animal or mother nature wins and that is how fair chase works out sometimes.
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I agree with the dogs suggestions. They will get done. |
Originally Posted by Thom55
(Post 4363872)
shot a buck with a 50 cal muzzle loader about 50 yards Knocked him down after about 5 min tried to get up laid back down for about 5 min then got up and walked off. There was hair and blood where it was laying and found another spot of blood and that was it How did the deer appear when it was knocked down by the bullet? Did it jump straight up then fall down, just knocked straight down to his buckling knees? Or did it look like he was hit by a battering ram near his spine, with him falling down sideways --- away from you --- like a rock? |
Originally Posted by rockport
(Post 4364238)
There is no below the spine and above the lungs. That is a myth. The spine dips and "no mans land" is above the spine.
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I would say Flags got it right and the hit was high above/clipping the spine sending massive shock through the deer leaving him dazed and confused for a bit but he will probably live.
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Originally Posted by rockport
(Post 4364238)
There is no below the spine and above the lungs. That is a myth. The spine dips and "no mans land" is above the spine.
"Now to the nitty-gritty of the question -- 'Whether a deer can survive being hit above the lungs but below the spine?' --- Depending on whether a deer lungs are inflated (breath in) or deflated (big exhale), there may be room for an arrow to pass and not cause a fatal wound." quote: From another hunting forum that I'm not supposed to link here. |
Did you ever gut a deer and see inside? The above is nothing but nonsense, rationalization for a wrong statement. I assure you, Rockport knows a lot more about deer than you do and he has gutted and butchered more than you. Quit when you are behind.
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Let us also keep in mind that the incident in question involved a muzzleloader, not an arrow. Does it matter? I don't know.
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Originally Posted by Cub Slayer
(Post 4364321)
Let us also keep in mind that the incident in question involved a muzzleloader, not an arrow. Does it matter? I don't know.
No it makes no difference, a none fatal hit is non fatal for muzzle loader, bow and arrow or center fire firearm. Perhaps a small amount, an arrow does no impart shock like a bullet does and probably would not have knocked the deer down. |
Having been primarily a smoke pole hunter for around forty years, I can say without a doubt that there is no place above the lungs and below the spine that a .50cal ball or .45cal ball will not be absolutely fatal. As rockport stated, that area is a myth that has been spread by the ignorant and those without first hand knowledge of a whitetail deer anatomy. As to the original poster, more than likely you hit where oldtimr and a couple of others stated and just stunned the deer for a bit. I've seen deer hit that looked like they were t-boned by a semi and still get back up and trot off like nothing happened. Now, to Cub Slayers statement about superior weapons, shall I laugh hard or softly snicker? It isn't the weapon there bud. It's the individual using it. I have taken many animals with, according to you, my inadequate smoke poles. Knocking on wood, I have yet to lose an animal but I will not shoot past 100 yards with any of my sidelocks and I always use the patience the old man instilled in me to wait for the perfect shot presentation. I haven't a clue why you are so hung up on muzzleloaders being inadequate, maybe you are the inadequate one but I can tell you with no doubts whatsoever that they are far from inadequate. The whitetail population was nearly wiped out when there was nothing but front stuffers that were not nearly as accurate as the ones made today. The bullets weren't nearly as efficient back then either. Whitetail are not that hard to take down. One just has to have patience and knowledge of where to put the bullet.
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The "void" debate between the spine and lungs comes from primarily archery hunters who have hit a deer high. A high lung shot with a bow often does not bleed allot outside of the deer. Resulting in a kill shot but no blood trail. And believe me, deer can cover some distance after a high lung shot. Lots of deer are lost this way. Or they hit over the spine and think they made a good shot because of how the deer reacts.
Cubslayers point in his last post was that a muzzleloader would likely do allot more damage than an arrow if hit in the "void"(which we've established doesn't exist) and we wouldn't be having a conversation about that "void" shot anyway. He was just saying he didn't know if it made a difference between arrow or .50cal in relation to that shot. In most cases-it does.
Originally Posted by Cub Slayer
(Post 4364219)
I'm not saying this is you, but consider that you might need to stick to superior weapons (i.e. rifles) until you improve.
I won't give you the "Big hole for better blood" lecture, because your .50 cal is obviously plenty big, but there is no way you made a good shot with that round and lost the deer. Is my recurve adequate? Absolutely, in my hands. Is it a good choice for someone with not allot of experience? No. He went on to say that a .50 Cal front stuffer is "plenty" and that if a good shot was made, the deer shouldn't have been lost. Sounds like you both agree. -Jake |
It should also be noted that we don't know the OPs experience level or skill level. Which was covered when cubslayers said "I'm not saying this is you..."
 This deer traveled just over 50 yards through some very thick brush with the top of the heart gone and both lung shredded on the bottom. If that was a high lung "void" hit it would have went further, without much blood probably. The chest cavity would be full when you gutted it, but you might not get much on the ground for tracking. It can be a very difficult shot to track. But it's still a fatal shot- no doubt. -Jake |
my expience with a muzzleloader is to reload as quickly as possible & hold the gun on him. if you see it move any put a second shot it in . that shot be with any weapon or bow. saves time by having to deal with chasing a wounded animal. it's best to waste a pound of meat than to have to deal with losing a animal. i lost 1 deer in my lifetime & it's still haunts me .because a day later i found it & the coyotes had a field day with it. my me sick & disgusted that i made a deer suffer like that. i almost quite hunting at that time. but promised myself never shoot until it is the perfect shot. & DUDE you should of never went hunting without aleast 5 rounds . not saying it should take you 5 rounds to kill it . but for 100% back up.also i believe any shot hitting a deer is fatal because if it does'nt die from the shot it most likely to die from infection or will suffer in pain the rest of it's life. it's like when i was t boned on a motorcycle people told me aleast you weren't killed but let me tell you my hips & shoulders are always in some kind of pain. period
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That's what I do as well. Reload immediately even if it's down.
Then approach. -Jake |
Originally Posted by Bocajnala
(Post 4364336)
The "void" debate between the spine and lungs comes from primarily archery hunters who have hit a deer high. A high lung shot with a bow often does not bleed allot outside of the deer. Resulting in a kill shot but no blood trail. And believe me, deer can cover some distance after a high lung shot. Lots of deer are lost this way. Or they hit over the spine and think they made a good shot because of how the deer reacts.
Cubslayers point in his last post was that a muzzleloader would likely do allot more damage than an arrow if hit in the "void"(which we've established doesn't exist) and we wouldn't be having a conversation about that "void" shot anyway. He was just saying he didn't know if it made a difference between arrow or .50cal in relation to that shot. In most cases-it does. I don't think he has a problem with muzzleloaders at all. He gave good advice. Stick with something "better" until you improve. I wouldn't hand my recurve to a brand new hunter or shooter. That would be silly. Is my recurve adequate? Absolutely, in my hands. Is it a good choice for someone with not allot of experience? No. He went on to say that a .50 Cal front stuffer is "plenty" and that if a good shot was made, the deer shouldn't have been lost. Sounds like you both agree. -Jake Jake, This (Void) is the Only thing i have ever disagreed with you on. I Lost a Nice buck like this about 4-5 years ago, I had sighted my .257 Weatherby in using a Lead Sled (HORRIBLE Devices!!) I took the Sight in as being “Gospel” I didn’t Test the Rifle against my Shoulder (Free Recoil) Anyway, I was Shooting High, about 10” or a Little more High! I didn’t find this out til later The First Animal that year was a Bull Elk, I shot for Low Lungs (As I ALWAYS do) When I Pulled the Trigger the Bull Went Down IMMEDIATELY, Just like he had been hit between the Eyes, I IMMEDIATELY Knew that was WRONG, Elk NEVER React like that, I have Killed 10-12 Elk, When hit in the Lungs 99.9% of the Time when the Rifle Settles down after the Shot, the Elk will be standing there, It’s Dead, But stil On it’s Feet, You will notice them Starting to Wobble, and Down they Go. Upon Skinning, and Quartering this Bull I found my Bullet had hit the Bottom of his Backbone (Hence why he Went Down Immediately) I simply wrote it up as something i had done Wrong? I had grabbed a little Sapling and bent it over for a Rest, In the back of my mind I thought “that Little sapling somehow Lifted when i pulled the Trigger?” I move on to my Deer Hunting, I didn’t bother Checking my Rifle, i was Confident everything was fine, my rifle had been babied, No bumps a Bruises of any kind. I spot a Nice Whitetail, EASY Shot, no more than 100 Yards, perfectly Broadside, and i had a SOLID Rest, This Rifle would Put 5 Shots in a Dime at 100 Yards with this Load. I shoot for Low Lungs, the Buck JUMPED and “MULE KICKED” at the Shot (80 Grain Barnes TTSX, My Handloads, Traveling at 3,700 FPS over my Chrono) The Buck Ran at an Angle toward me out in the Wide open, He came about 70-80 Yards and STOPPED, Of all things He stopped in behind an Old Log with Roots Attached, I could NOT See Vitals? Just his Back Bone, and Neck, I didn’t feel any need to shoot again, I Calmly waited for a Minute, i was CONFIDENT he would Start Wobbling Around Any Second and Go Down, After SEVERAL minutes I realized Something was Wrong, BAD WRONG, I KNEW that Buck was Hit!! I have Shot WAY to many Deer in my Lifetime to think otherwise. I didn’t like the Neck shot i had, So i settled on his Back bone, at this point the Buck was probably 75 Yards from me, EASY Shot. I take the Shot, The Buck WHEELED and RAN back the Direction he Came. I Obviously didn’t hit him, had i hit the Backbone he would have went DOWN IMMEDIATELY I head in and Start trying to figure it out? I found 1 TEENY TINY Speck of Blood on a Leaf Where he had Stood Behind that Old log, That was the ONLY Blood i ever Found, I could EASILY track him the Way he had Ran Back where he had Came from, he had tore the Ground up, NOT a Speck of Blood. I spent 2 Days in here and Covered Several Square Miles, No sign of him, he was Simply Gone I take my Rifle out and Check shoot it, SURE enough it was HIGH, like 10 inches high! What I think happened? The only thing that makes Any Sense? Now that I Know for a FACT that my Rifle was High, I Obviously Shot OVER his Lungs, If i had hit his Lungs he would have Died. And If i had Hit, or even touched his Backbone he would have went DOWN like the Bull Elk Did, I am CONFIDENT the Bullet went over his Lungs, and Under His Backbone. And My little 80 Grain Barnes TTSX bullet from the .257 Weatherby traveling at 3,700 FPS Zipped Through like Butter, With the Barnes X Bullet being a “PREMIUM” Bullet, They Don’t Blow Apart, They Roll Back in a Perfect Mushroom, 4 Pedals, and DRIVE Through. i Made another Shot like this By accident a few years later with my Little 7MM-08 And Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullets, My Shot was WAY to High, The Buck JUMPED, Muled Kicked and RAN, I could Track him no problem, Not lots of blood, But Enough to Stay with him. A good 1/2 Hour had passed from my Shot to Finding him, He was down in a Creek Bottom Laying on his Belly, With his Head Up, In Shock, I had to Shoot again. I HATE THAT Happened!! But at least i Recovered him. UPON Gutting him, His Lungs were FULLY Intact, The Shot was OVER them. But this Bullet being “NON Premium” And Traveling SUBSTANTIALLY Slower, Their Was Enough SHOCK Damage to Stop him, put him Down. I DEFINITELY Believe in the “Void” BUT I also believe it takes a VERY Unique Situation for it to Show up, My .257 Weatherby With that Little 80 Grain Premium Bullet traveling at LIGHTNING Speed was the Perfect, or Better yet Worse Case Scenario for the “Void”. I would Place a LARGE bet that if I could make that EXACT same Shot again Today, with Say a Berger Bullet, Something That Intentionally By Design BLOWS APART, I believe that Buck that i lost Would have Went STRAIGHT DOWN at the Shot, of course this is Speculation? But I’ve been through, and Seen a LOT |
Originally Posted by Bocajnala
(Post 4364347)
That's what I do as well. Reload immediately even if it's down.
Then approach. -Jake |
I gotta admit I am very guilty of not being prepared for a followup shot. I blame bowhunting as my instinct is to immediately find out where Ive hit the deer and exactly where its going rather than prepare for another shot..
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Originally Posted by rockport
(Post 4364352)
I gotta admit I am very guilty of not being prepared for a followup shot. I blame bowhunting as my instinct is to immediately find out where Ive hit the deer and exactly where its going rather than prepare for another shot..
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Hunters_life, I don't know where you're getting the idea that I consider a muzzleloader to be an inadequate weapon for deer. I never stated or even suggested this. I'm planning to buy a bow next year for deer hunting, so I obviously consider a bow suitable, but not in my hands at this time. I'm not planning to bowhunt anything in 2020. However, it is sound and solid advice that any weapon, rifles included, requires mastery to make ethical kill shots.
I am particularly sensitive to this as a bear hunter. Between real life and video life, I've seen far too many people bowhunting bears that simply shouldn't be. Clean misses, wounded bears, and bears that expire after a long and painful night. I wish these hunters understood which weapons they had proficiency with, and which ones they didn't. I've seen hunters at camp bring bows, miss their bear, and then switch over to rifles. On a side note, I got really P.O.ed at the manufactured controversy over Josh Bowmar's spearing a bear in Alberta(?) For those unaware, Josh was an olympic-level javelin thrower. He built a special spear, attached a Go-Pro and hunted a black bear at a distance of 10-20 yards. His shot was perfect - hit the boiler room and practically disemboweled the bear on its feet. But since he decided to retrieve the bear the next morning, the animal rights morons pounced, suggesting that this bear could have "suffered for 20 hours". Their number comes not from biology but from Bowmar's waiting 20 hours - as if the bear would have been lying on the ground writhing in pain had he come back 19 hours later instead. I've seen dozes of bear kills first hand - this bear was dead within 30 seconds on the long side. Bowmar was a master of his weapon, and made an ethical shot, but since it looked gruesome, he got crucified for it. |
Originally Posted by Idaholewis
(Post 4364353)
Hey rockport, is that Rockport Wa? If so, i bet you and i have Fished and Hunted the Same Country :cool2: I cut my Teeth Hunting and Fishing there, Was born n Raised there, I spent 38 Years in that Country, I moved here to idaho about 9 Years ago. |
I have only lost 1 deer to spoilage in the several dozens I have killed. That deer was bow shot during early season and didn't get found until the next day. Coyotes hadn't found it yet but after I butchered the meat I couldn't get past that taste of tainted meat. Unless it is very very cold guts left in an animal will spoil it after several hours especially if the stomach was punctured by the shot as it was in this case. In bigger animals like moose or elk it is even more important. They gas up much sooner. reminds me of my first elk kill before we learned the finer art of the gutless method of field dressing. My 2 hunting buddies and I were all seasoned whitetail hunters but first time elk hunters. We had exceptional luck and got into a herd and we had 2 cows and a decent bull down. We were all spread out about 1/2 mile apart and I got the first cow then Rob dropped another as they ran past him and finally Dave smoked the bull about a mile from me. We all decided by radio that Rob and I would deal with my cow first then move on to his. Dave would try to get his gutted and moved to a shady spot then he would join us for getting our elk back to the truck. Dave started his gutting after a little while and his animal was right out in the sun. I gutted mine and it was already starting to get gassed up. After I got it done I radioed Dave and told him to watch out for the green explosion. His answer was.... too late. That was a long day and at around 4 pm we were sitting on the tailgate with 12 game bags and a rack in the back of the truck. We took them all out to the road quartered using our pack frames. Later on we learned about the gutless method and often boned them in the field when they were far back.
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Originally Posted by Cub Slayer
(Post 4364321)
Let us also keep in mind that the incident in question involved a muzzleloader, not an arrow. Does it matter? I don't know.
Here's another poster --- 'Beekeeper' --- from another hunting forum on this disputed subject: "I hit a buck like that once bowhunting and it didn't kill him. How do I know? Because a buddy of mine shot the same buck 30 days later with a rifle during gun season. My arrow did very little damage to the buck's lungs (just a small amount of scar tissue) and the X the broadhead had made on pass through was plainly evident on both sides of the chest wall. The arrow passed between ribs ribs partially severing one on exit. The external wounds were scabbed over. Whitetailed' deer are tough." |
I've butchered a couple deer that had old wounds from a bow. An arrow not hitting an artery or organ can heal over. Deer are real tough.
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