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Old 11-10-2019, 12:50 AM
  #31  
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That's what I do as well. Reload immediately even if it's down.

Then approach.
-Jake
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:55 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Bocajnala
The "void" debate between the spine and lungs comes from primarily archery hunters who have hit a deer high. A high lung shot with a bow often does not bleed allot outside of the deer. Resulting in a kill shot but no blood trail. And believe me, deer can cover some distance after a high lung shot. Lots of deer are lost this way. Or they hit over the spine and think they made a good shot because of how the deer reacts.

Cubslayers point in his last post was that a muzzleloader would likely do allot more damage than an arrow if hit in the "void"(which we've established doesn't exist) and we wouldn't be having a conversation about that "void" shot anyway. He was just saying he didn't know if it made a difference between arrow or .50cal in relation to that shot. In most cases-it does.



I don't think he has a problem with muzzleloaders at all. He gave good advice. Stick with something "better" until you improve. I wouldn't hand my recurve to a brand new hunter or shooter. That would be silly.

Is my recurve adequate? Absolutely, in my hands. Is it a good choice for someone with not allot of experience? No.

He went on to say that a .50 Cal front stuffer is "plenty" and that if a good shot was made, the deer shouldn't have been lost.

Sounds like you both agree.

-Jake

Jake, This (Void) is the Only thing i have ever disagreed with you on.

I Lost a Nice buck like this about 4-5 years ago, I had sighted my .257 Weatherby in using a Lead Sled (HORRIBLE Devices!!) I took the Sight in as being “Gospel” I didn’t Test the Rifle against my Shoulder (Free Recoil) Anyway, I was Shooting High, about 10” or a Little more High! I didn’t find this out til later

The First Animal that year was a Bull Elk, I shot for Low Lungs (As I ALWAYS do) When I Pulled the Trigger the Bull Went Down IMMEDIATELY, Just like he had been hit between the Eyes, I IMMEDIATELY Knew that was WRONG, Elk NEVER React like that, I have Killed 10-12 Elk, When hit in the Lungs 99.9% of the Time when the Rifle Settles down after the Shot, the Elk will be standing there, It’s Dead, But stil On it’s Feet, You will notice them Starting to Wobble, and Down they Go. Upon Skinning, and Quartering this Bull I found my Bullet had hit the Bottom of his Backbone (Hence why he Went Down Immediately) I simply wrote it up as something i had done Wrong? I had grabbed a little Sapling and bent it over for a Rest, In the back of my mind I thought “that Little sapling somehow Lifted when i pulled the Trigger?”

I move on to my Deer Hunting, I didn’t bother Checking my Rifle, i was Confident everything was fine, my rifle had been babied, No bumps a Bruises of any kind.

I spot a Nice Whitetail, EASY Shot, no more than 100 Yards, perfectly Broadside, and i had a SOLID Rest, This Rifle would Put 5 Shots in a Dime at 100 Yards with this Load. I shoot for Low Lungs, the Buck JUMPED and “MULE KICKED” at the Shot (80 Grain Barnes TTSX, My Handloads, Traveling at 3,700 FPS over my Chrono) The Buck Ran at an Angle toward me out in the Wide open, He came about 70-80 Yards and STOPPED, Of all things He stopped in behind an Old Log with Roots Attached, I could NOT See Vitals? Just his Back Bone, and Neck, I didn’t feel any need to shoot again, I Calmly waited for a Minute, i was CONFIDENT he would Start Wobbling Around Any Second and Go Down, After SEVERAL minutes I realized Something was Wrong, BAD WRONG, I KNEW that Buck was Hit!! I have Shot WAY to many Deer in my Lifetime to think otherwise. I didn’t like the Neck shot i had, So i settled on his Back bone, at this point the Buck was probably 75 Yards from me, EASY Shot. I take the Shot, The Buck WHEELED and RAN back the Direction he Came. I Obviously didn’t hit him, had i hit the Backbone he would have went DOWN IMMEDIATELY

I head in and Start trying to figure it out? I found 1 TEENY TINY Speck of Blood on a Leaf Where he had Stood Behind that Old log, That was the ONLY Blood i ever Found, I could EASILY track him the Way he had Ran Back where he had Came from, he had tore the Ground up, NOT a Speck of Blood. I spent 2 Days in here and Covered Several Square Miles, No sign of him, he was Simply Gone

I take my Rifle out and Check shoot it, SURE enough it was HIGH, like 10 inches high!

What I think happened? The only thing that makes Any Sense? Now that I Know for a FACT that my Rifle was High, I Obviously Shot OVER his Lungs, If i had hit his Lungs he would have Died. And If i had Hit, or even touched his Backbone he would have went DOWN like the Bull Elk Did, I am CONFIDENT the Bullet went over his Lungs, and Under His Backbone. And My little 80 Grain Barnes TTSX bullet from the .257 Weatherby traveling at 3,700 FPS Zipped Through like Butter, With the Barnes X Bullet being a “PREMIUM” Bullet, They Don’t Blow Apart, They Roll Back in a Perfect Mushroom, 4 Pedals, and DRIVE Through.

i Made another Shot like this By accident a few years later with my Little 7MM-08 And Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullets, My Shot was WAY to High, The Buck JUMPED, Muled Kicked and RAN, I could Track him no problem, Not lots of blood, But Enough to Stay with him. A good 1/2 Hour had passed from my Shot to Finding him, He was down in a Creek Bottom Laying on his Belly, With his Head Up, In Shock, I had to Shoot again. I HATE THAT Happened!! But at least i Recovered him. UPON Gutting him, His Lungs were FULLY Intact, The Shot was OVER them. But this Bullet being “NON Premium” And Traveling SUBSTANTIALLY Slower, Their Was Enough SHOCK Damage to Stop him, put him Down.

I DEFINITELY Believe in the “Void” BUT I also believe it takes a VERY Unique Situation for it to Show up, My .257 Weatherby With that Little 80 Grain Premium Bullet traveling at LIGHTNING Speed was the Perfect, or Better yet Worse Case Scenario for the “Void”. I would Place a LARGE bet that if I could make that EXACT same Shot again Today, with Say a Berger Bullet, Something That Intentionally By Design BLOWS APART, I believe that Buck that i lost Would have Went STRAIGHT DOWN at the Shot, of course this is Speculation? But I’ve been through, and Seen a LOT

Last edited by Idaholewis; 11-10-2019 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 11-10-2019, 03:46 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Bocajnala
That's what I do as well. Reload immediately even if it's down.

Then approach.
-Jake
In my case I was re-loaded but uncapped due to having to climb down from the stand. It was after shooting hours when I hit the ground so no need to re-cap. While walking over to what I thought was a dead deer it took off as the neighbors wheeler came up to it. Had I known it wasn't dead I would have shot it again from the stand. It was a very odd thing to happen.
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Old 11-10-2019, 04:01 AM
  #34  
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I gotta admit I am very guilty of not being prepared for a followup shot. I blame bowhunting as my instinct is to immediately find out where Ive hit the deer and exactly where its going rather than prepare for another shot..
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Old 11-10-2019, 04:25 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by rockport
I gotta admit I am very guilty of not being prepared for a followup shot. I blame bowhunting as my instinct is to immediately find out where Ive hit the deer and exactly where its going rather than prepare for another shot..
Hey rockport, is that Rockport Wa? If so, i bet you and i have Fished and Hunted the Same Country I cut my Teeth Hunting and Fishing there, Was born n Raised there, I spent 38 Years in that Country, I moved here to idaho about 9 Years ago.
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Old 11-10-2019, 05:08 AM
  #36  
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Hunters_life, I don't know where you're getting the idea that I consider a muzzleloader to be an inadequate weapon for deer. I never stated or even suggested this. I'm planning to buy a bow next year for deer hunting, so I obviously consider a bow suitable, but not in my hands at this time. I'm not planning to bowhunt anything in 2020. However, it is sound and solid advice that any weapon, rifles included, requires mastery to make ethical kill shots.

I am particularly sensitive to this as a bear hunter. Between real life and video life, I've seen far too many people bowhunting bears that simply shouldn't be. Clean misses, wounded bears, and bears that expire after a long and painful night. I wish these hunters understood which weapons they had proficiency with, and which ones they didn't. I've seen hunters at camp bring bows, miss their bear, and then switch over to rifles.

On a side note, I got really P.O.ed at the manufactured controversy over Josh Bowmar's spearing a bear in Alberta(?) For those unaware, Josh was an olympic-level javelin thrower. He built a special spear, attached a Go-Pro and hunted a black bear at a distance of 10-20 yards. His shot was perfect - hit the boiler room and practically disemboweled the bear on its feet. But since he decided to retrieve the bear the next morning, the animal rights morons pounced, suggesting that this bear could have "suffered for 20 hours". Their number comes not from biology but from Bowmar's waiting 20 hours - as if the bear would have been lying on the ground writhing in pain had he come back 19 hours later instead.

I've seen dozes of bear kills first hand - this bear was dead within 30 seconds on the long side. Bowmar was a master of his weapon, and made an ethical shot, but since it looked gruesome, he got crucified for it.
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Old 11-10-2019, 05:28 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Idaholewis


Hey rockport, is that Rockport Wa? If so, i bet you and i have Fished and Hunted the Same Country I cut my Teeth Hunting and Fishing there, Was born n Raised there, I spent 38 Years in that Country, I moved here to idaho about 9 Years ago.
No its Illinois....population 364
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Old 11-10-2019, 05:33 AM
  #38  
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I have only lost 1 deer to spoilage in the several dozens I have killed. That deer was bow shot during early season and didn't get found until the next day. Coyotes hadn't found it yet but after I butchered the meat I couldn't get past that taste of tainted meat. Unless it is very very cold guts left in an animal will spoil it after several hours especially if the stomach was punctured by the shot as it was in this case. In bigger animals like moose or elk it is even more important. They gas up much sooner. reminds me of my first elk kill before we learned the finer art of the gutless method of field dressing. My 2 hunting buddies and I were all seasoned whitetail hunters but first time elk hunters. We had exceptional luck and got into a herd and we had 2 cows and a decent bull down. We were all spread out about 1/2 mile apart and I got the first cow then Rob dropped another as they ran past him and finally Dave smoked the bull about a mile from me. We all decided by radio that Rob and I would deal with my cow first then move on to his. Dave would try to get his gutted and moved to a shady spot then he would join us for getting our elk back to the truck. Dave started his gutting after a little while and his animal was right out in the sun. I gutted mine and it was already starting to get gassed up. After I got it done I radioed Dave and told him to watch out for the green explosion. His answer was.... too late. That was a long day and at around 4 pm we were sitting on the tailgate with 12 game bags and a rack in the back of the truck. We took them all out to the road quartered using our pack frames. Later on we learned about the gutless method and often boned them in the field when they were far back.
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Old 11-11-2019, 12:52 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Cub Slayer
Let us also keep in mind that the incident in question involved a muzzleloader, not an arrow. Does it matter? I don't know.
A muzzleloader bullet --- especially a round ball --- causes allot less hydrostatic shock than a similar weighted bullet that is shot from a hi-power rifle.

Here's another poster --- 'Beekeeper' --- from another hunting forum on this disputed subject:

"I hit a buck like that once bowhunting and it didn't kill him. How do I know?

Because a buddy of mine shot the same buck 30 days later with a rifle during gun season. My arrow did very little damage to the buck's lungs (just a small amount of scar tissue) and the X the broadhead had made on pass through was plainly evident on both sides of the chest wall.

The arrow passed between ribs ribs partially severing one on exit. The external wounds were scabbed over. Whitetailed' deer are tough."
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Old 11-11-2019, 12:56 PM
  #40  
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I've butchered a couple deer that had old wounds from a bow. An arrow not hitting an artery or organ can heal over. Deer are real tough.
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