pass-through vs. internally expended energy?
01-11-2017, 04:17 AM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Audubon & Red Rock, Penna.
Posts: 4,472
The reason a bullet hits an animal at 2000fps and doesn't make it through is precisely because it is doing more damage.
I'm not talking about different bullets going the same velocity. As in, a FMJ and a soft lead bullet that are both going 2000fps. I'm strictly talking about whether a pass-through is better than a bullet that does not exit. I want a bullet that expands and penetrates.
A fully mushroomed bullet that goes through a deer at 3000 fps will transfer more energy than a fully mushroomed bullet that is going 2000 fps. More trauma, more shock. It is the expansion of the bullet and the fact that it is meeting resistance that gets the non-pass-through guys giddy. But, in order for that bullet to stop before exiting, it has to slow down to a complete stop. Meaning, at the end of its wound channel, it is barely transferring any energy. It is running out of gas.
01-11-2017, 05:09 AM
#42
Fork Horn
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 406
I usually strive to take the "archery shot" regardless of weapon being used. In every target you can see where the lungs, heart and liver overlap. I refer to this as the "archery shot". Southern Mi offers a great deal of variety in deer sex and size. The "archery shot" would necessitate a different amount of energy needed between full expansion and pass-through on a broadsie small doe vs a 200lbs+ buck quartering towards. Simply, if I were to go for a bullet that will give me full expansion on the broadside archery shot, will it have enough energy when a quartering shot for a 200lbs monster is presented?
Accuracy is number 1 for hunting bullets. Then I want bullet construction and penetration to take any shot I may encounter on the animal I am hunting. Once I know that it will do those things, transfer as much energy as possible to the game animal.
Accuracy is number 1 for hunting bullets. Then I want bullet construction and penetration to take any shot I may encounter on the animal I am hunting. Once I know that it will do those things, transfer as much energy as possible to the game animal.
01-11-2017, 05:10 AM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,359
But, add another 500 fps to this same bullet and it will do more damage and still penetrate.
I'm not talking about different bullets going the same velocity. As in, a FMJ and a soft lead bullet that are both going 2000fps. I'm strictly talking about whether a pass-through is better than a bullet that does not exit. I want a bullet that expands and penetrates.
A fully mushroomed bullet that goes through a deer at 3000 fps will transfer more energy than a fully mushroomed bullet that is going 2000 fps. More trauma, more shock. It is the expansion of the bullet and the fact that it is meeting resistance that gets the non-pass-through guys giddy. But, in order for that bullet to stop before exiting, it has to slow down to a complete stop. Meaning, at the end of its wound channel, it is barely transferring any energy. It is running out of gas.
I'm not talking about different bullets going the same velocity. As in, a FMJ and a soft lead bullet that are both going 2000fps. I'm strictly talking about whether a pass-through is better than a bullet that does not exit. I want a bullet that expands and penetrates.
A fully mushroomed bullet that goes through a deer at 3000 fps will transfer more energy than a fully mushroomed bullet that is going 2000 fps. More trauma, more shock. It is the expansion of the bullet and the fact that it is meeting resistance that gets the non-pass-through guys giddy. But, in order for that bullet to stop before exiting, it has to slow down to a complete stop. Meaning, at the end of its wound channel, it is barely transferring any energy. It is running out of gas.
I think maybe you are misunderstanding what gets the non pass through guys giddy or maybe some of those guys are misunderstanding the concept.
The comparison shouldn't be the same bullet traveling 2000fps vs 3000fps.....thats a no brainer.
The idea is comparing 2 bullets starting with the same energy/velocity and one creating enough resistance to dump all its energy in the target VS one that passes through and wastes its energy.
I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Thats my take anyway but I'm no professional and maybe I'll get corrected.
01-11-2017, 05:29 AM
#44
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Audubon & Red Rock, Penna.
Posts: 4,472
The idea is comparing 2 bullets starting with the same energy/velocity and one creating enough resistance to dump all its energy in the target VS one that passes through and wastes its energy.
A perfect example happened at my camp a few years ago. I loaded the same Barnes Triple Shocks for my 300 Weatherby and my buddy's 308 Win. My bullets penetrate deer and drop them like a stone. Even though they don't run, they are laying in a pool of blood from the nice exit wound. The same exact bullet from my buddy's 308 Win did not penetrate his last buck. It expanded to the same diameter as my bullets. But it ran out of energy and couldn't punch through. It did run, and the blood trail wasn't that great with only one hole. That same bullet, at 600 fps faster, would have mushroomed the same, but hit harder and penetrate.
01-11-2017, 06:14 AM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,230
I base the above on experience with 91 deer, 25 elk, 2 black bear, 14 pronghorns, 5 bison, a bighorn sheep, a stone sheep, a mountain goat and who knows how many wild hogs.
01-11-2017, 06:20 AM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,359
We agree on this. My perfect bullet expands to double its diameter and retains weight and ultimately penetrates. If I have to compromise, give me 50% of each. I don't want a bullet that expends all it's energy in the first half of the target either. I want it to get through anything and penetrate bone, muscle or what ever gets in the way at any angle.
A perfect example happened at my camp a few years ago. I loaded the same Barnes Triple Shocks for my 300 Weatherby and my buddy's 308 Win. My bullets penetrate deer and drop them like a stone. Even though they don't run, they are laying in a pool of blood from the nice exit wound. The same exact bullet from my buddy's 308 Win did not penetrate his last buck. It expanded to the same diameter as my bullets. But it ran out of energy and couldn't punch through. It did run, and the blood trail wasn't that great with only one hole. That same bullet, at 600 fps faster, would have mushroomed the same, but hit harder and penetrate.
A perfect example happened at my camp a few years ago. I loaded the same Barnes Triple Shocks for my 300 Weatherby and my buddy's 308 Win. My bullets penetrate deer and drop them like a stone. Even though they don't run, they are laying in a pool of blood from the nice exit wound. The same exact bullet from my buddy's 308 Win did not penetrate his last buck. It expanded to the same diameter as my bullets. But it ran out of energy and couldn't punch through. It did run, and the blood trail wasn't that great with only one hole. That same bullet, at 600 fps faster, would have mushroomed the same, but hit harder and penetrate.
I get the impression you are trying to dispute the "non-pass-through guys" if that is the case you are cheating. Your using a round that has more energy to begin with(apples/oranges)
You would need to compare the same energy with different bullets not the same bullets with different energy.
I want a pass through myself.....I agree with you on that but your comparison does not give the opposing view a fair shake. Your delivering more energy because you have more energy to deliver in the first place.
Last edited by rockport; 01-11-2017 at 06:47 AM.
01-11-2017, 06:35 AM
#47
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Allegan, MI
Posts: 8,019
My guess is you have never seen a neck shot fail. I have. If you don't get the spine and just clip the windpipe or esophagus than you have a wounded animal that can and will go a long way. As you say, you're new to hunting. Most experienced hunters go for the heart/lung/chest area because it is a bigger target and if you put a bullet anywhere in it you will drop the animal. Neck and head shots are iffy at best.
I base the above on experience with 91 deer, 25 elk, 2 black bear, 14 pronghorns, 5 bison, a bighorn sheep, a stone sheep, a mountain goat and who knows how many wild hogs.
I base the above on experience with 91 deer, 25 elk, 2 black bear, 14 pronghorns, 5 bison, a bighorn sheep, a stone sheep, a mountain goat and who knows how many wild hogs.
01-11-2017, 06:56 AM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
I try to avoid the head a neck shot arguments. The guys that regularly take those shots have either, as Flags stated, never seen the results from a just an inch or 2 off or they have seen it and just don't care. But you can't argue with them either way usually. They think they are perfect shots and will never miss.
01-11-2017, 07:07 AM
#49
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Audubon & Red Rock, Penna.
Posts: 4,472
I guess this argument has two different aspects.
Same cartridge and different bullet. - Apples.
Same bullet and different cartridges. - Oranges.
Rockport - you are arguing apples and I am arguing oranges. In the apple category, I want a bullet that expands a lot but can still penetrate. I would like the best of both worlds, but would take slightly less expansion to get that pass-through.
As for the oranges, I guess I'm arguing against the people who prefer lower velocity because they think it leaves all the energy in the animal. They think faster cartridges just poke through and leave little energy anywhere but in the tree behind the animal.
But, we are arguing about different things. So, we could really agree on everything.....if we were talking about the same things.
I am losing my focus.
Same cartridge and different bullet. - Apples.
Same bullet and different cartridges. - Oranges.
Rockport - you are arguing apples and I am arguing oranges. In the apple category, I want a bullet that expands a lot but can still penetrate. I would like the best of both worlds, but would take slightly less expansion to get that pass-through.
As for the oranges, I guess I'm arguing against the people who prefer lower velocity because they think it leaves all the energy in the animal. They think faster cartridges just poke through and leave little energy anywhere but in the tree behind the animal.
But, we are arguing about different things. So, we could really agree on everything.....if we were talking about the same things.
I am losing my focus.
01-11-2017, 07:37 AM
#50
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 866
Neighbor came to ask permission to recover deer they shoot in a wide open corn field, then run to my place.
As far as I know they have never recovered a deer they claim to have shot that runs to my place. Oh they are shooting 12ga shot guns with slugs.
Any way he said if I ever needed help looking for a deer he was just next door.
I said thanks but I don't take iffy shots, and my deer do not run far at all that are hit with the buck hammers I use at present in my tiny 20ga.
My 2015 buck went farther than any other I have shot with that tiny 20ga. Scratched my head over that 35 yard run for a little bit, then reran the shot thru my head and it was the angle. just clipped the tip of bottom of the heart hardly did any damage to the lungs at all.
Read Muzzle loader forum a while back and people were dising the Hornady XTP pistol bullets in a muzzle loader because they came apart. Way I see that is you have a big chunk of lead plowing thru the body cavity and a smaller chunk of copper doing the same thing IN THE BODY CAVITY.
Al
As far as I know they have never recovered a deer they claim to have shot that runs to my place. Oh they are shooting 12ga shot guns with slugs.
Any way he said if I ever needed help looking for a deer he was just next door.
I said thanks but I don't take iffy shots, and my deer do not run far at all that are hit with the buck hammers I use at present in my tiny 20ga.
My 2015 buck went farther than any other I have shot with that tiny 20ga. Scratched my head over that 35 yard run for a little bit, then reran the shot thru my head and it was the angle. just clipped the tip of bottom of the heart hardly did any damage to the lungs at all.
Read Muzzle loader forum a while back and people were dising the Hornady XTP pistol bullets in a muzzle loader because they came apart. Way I see that is you have a big chunk of lead plowing thru the body cavity and a smaller chunk of copper doing the same thing IN THE BODY CAVITY.
AlI don't like wasting all day during HUNTING season tracking deer and stomping all over every inch of the exact ground I want to HUNT for two more weeks.
So I don't take shots I may miss at live game animals.
I take my iffy shots and leg stretching shots ON THE TARGET RANGE to learn my real abilities. I don't guess.